Forged Alliance Forever

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-19T15:11:38+02:00

I find that you have to do it twice, as the first order to ground attack makes a unit attack move instead. (this happens to me for pretty much every unit.) But once you get multiple CZARs to attack a single spot on the ground, they stack up kinda like broodwar mutas. Then you keep them together by moving the ground attack order around. If you use a move command they will split up into a regular formation again.

Statistics: Posted by Icy — 19 Jul 2012, 15:11

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-18T22:29:27+02:00

Hmm I might have to test this again (and I'd encourage you guys to do the same), but I tried the CZAR ground attack strategy (after having gotten it to work before) and my CZAR simply wouldn't shoot at the ground. I'm not sure if it's an update to prevent that tactic or if I was just trippin' haha. But if that's so I already miss it

Statistics: Posted by CocoaMoko — 18 Jul 2012, 22:29

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T18:39:59+02:00

To micro against it you have to manually keep your asf blob away from the center of the CZAR, and try to avoid the massive flak damage coming from the sides. I believe Madstork(I think, it was a long time ago) is the only person to ever beat 4 stacked CZARs with pure ASF micro, but he still lost more than half of them to the combined aa weapons. If you really need to stop this, use flak or restorers. Flak splashes all of the CZARS at once, and a blob of restorers can easily avoid the beam and the flak cannons.
It is not an exaggeration to say that I have killed 600 ASF with 5 CZARS and only 1 of them went down, the rest got a load of vet and lived to win the game for me (this was months ago, before the vet change. They would all be vet 5 if it happened today) The fighters literally all got 1shotted as they passed through the center of the beam (this was over 15k aoe dps)

Statistics: Posted by Icy — 17 Jul 2012, 18:39

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T18:28:41+02:00

Now we know that you need to get it in under 15m for it to have a good chance to survive early. I think the window for an early CZAR can be extended by raiding the t3 air factory. It could also be extended by any anti-air from your team.

For the late game CZAR, I think it is an option when you have won an ASF fight or two and want to seal the deal.

Icy wrote:
You want the CZAR to be effective against ASF? Ground fire it to activate the beam before the ASF attack, and the ASF will fly through the beam and take massive damage. Stack 3 or more CZARS together like this and 1shot hundreds of ASF in a couple seconds. A few CZARS can beat their own cost in pure ASF spam and survive, should work even better now with the new vet system.

If you do this right, it is incredibly imba against anyone that doesnt have pro ASF micro skills, and even then the flak will do a lot of damage to the blob.

Would ASF micro to avoid the beam mean that they have to start banking early to make themselves never pass under the CZAR? Or perhaps something like starting the ASF somewhat spread out(formation move) then command them the ones in the center to not pass directly under the CZAR? To be hit by the beam, they have to fly directly under its origin within 4 range(aoe of the beam damage)? I see what you mean about stacking multiple CZAR making it very difficult to avoid being hit by the AOE from beams and flak. Thanks for all the advice V and ICY.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 17 Jul 2012, 18:28

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T18:11:18+02:00

You want the CZAR to be effective against ASF? Ground fire it to activate the beam before the ASF attack, and the ASF will fly through the beam and take massive damage. Stack 3 or more CZARS together like this and 1shot hundreds of ASF in a couple seconds. A few CZARS can beat their own cost in pure ASF spam and survive, should work even better now with the new vet system.

If you do this right, it is incredibly imba against anyone that doesnt have pro ASF micro skills, and even then the flak will do a lot of damage to the blob.

Statistics: Posted by Icy — 17 Jul 2012, 18:11

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T17:05:33+02:00

Just tested in sbox.
it barely survives to 20 asf , the vet saves the CZAR.

30asf it's completely raped. So let's say it's 22 asf

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 17 Jul 2012, 17:05

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T17:01:12+02:00

Myrdral wrote:
Not giving up V! I do agree with you that the CZAR is a terrible option if the enemy has the ability to kill it in 2 seconds with their ASF. Would it be possible for a team to work on it together and have it up before the unassisted opposing back player has 30 ASF? You could build it in your front player's base, perhaps protected by flak/SAM. Would be interesting to have it guarded by a lot of ground based AA as you will certainly have less ASF than your opponent. You may be able to force your opponents to massively attack the project in a base which your entire team can support and defend strongly. Also, can it be built underwater if your team has naval dominance?

That'd be fun to try a CZAR rush . If we talk about setons, 30 asf pop up between 15-17 min now. I think the biggest issue will be the energy, not the mass.

BTW it's not built underwater, but over it.

Is it right to say that an early experimental should be part of a grand scheme by the entire team? Is a game-ender experimental is most effective when your team has fought to an advantage in a certain area and you wish to press that advantage decisively?

Actually I',m not quite sure how many ASF can a sole CZAR take down.

I guess the CZAR is just an early team project and/or game ender after you have already won the air?

Early ...test it , I'm curious
Late, imho, it's for the lol effect, cause usually it's already over. Even with a handful of asf a CZAR would be taken down very fast.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 17 Jul 2012, 17:01

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T13:56:55+02:00

Not giving up V! I do agree with you that the CZAR is a terrible option if the enemy has the ability to kill it in 2 seconds with their ASF. Would it be possible for a team to work on it together and have it up before the unassisted opposing back player has 30 ASF? You could build it in your front player's base, perhaps protected by flak/SAM. Would be interesting to have it guarded by a lot of ground based AA as you will certainly have less ASF than your opponent. You may be able to force your opponents to massively attack the project in a base which your entire team can support and defend strongly. Also, can it be built underwater if your team has naval dominance?

The CZAR may also be a project to end the game after you have already won air dominance. Once you reach tier 3, would your unit evolution be something like nearly all ASF until you win air dominance, then a mix of strat bombers/gunships and finally experimental? For all the Aeon experimentals, I think the CZAR is perhaps the best option after achieving air dominance. Although, a paragon first may be a better choice if you think you will need quite a few experimentals. I think the Aeon experimentals are setup extremely well. Aeon has quite nice experimental options for a good variety of roles from what I gather(not an Aeon player yet). CZAR does seem the most appropriate if your team has air dominance. I look at it as a giant Restorer in terms of how it can put up a fight in the air while projecting your air dominance against the ground. It also can support and replenish your already existing ASF, strat bombers and gunships.

Is it right to say that an early experimental should be part of a grand scheme by the entire team? Is a game-ender experimental is most effective when your team has fought to an advantage in a certain area and you wish to press that advantage decisively?

I guess the CZAR is just an early team project and/or game ender after you have already won the air?

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 17 Jul 2012, 13:56

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T13:29:08+02:00

If I were in that situation to counter asf massive superiority, I would rather do AA for myself and team mates and some shields than a CZAR.

Flaks are incredibly efficient against big groups of asf, combined with some t3 aa spread out, even with massive air sup, it becomes really hard to do something with air with the new FAF balance.

Even if your CZAR is in ally territory, the TIME you took to build it (time is usually what matters most at that point of the game), is completely wasted , plus it won't help you get air sup back, quite the contrary actually. Sure you won't lose mass if it's in ally territory (although who is stupid enough to send asf all over the map to kill a CZAR ) but you don't gain better defense against AA either.

That thing builds fast, but so do the aircraft carriers, and the costs are "slighty" in favor of the carrier . Plus it will survive fast long enough for you to spread the internal planes if attacked.

At the stage where you can get so many asf (250+ => 22-25min on setons), navy is usually quite big, shielded and assisted by significant AA. Still at that stage it's freakin hard and expensive to bomb efficiently an opponent and really get benefits from the mass and time wasted in building bombers/gs of any kind.

I do understand you're trying hard to find some use of that CZAR, but really I can't think of any really interesting use of it as it is. It's more like a TASTE MY HONEY GLAZED DONUT touch than anything else, once the game is really over. The awhassa is way more interesting because of its crazy speed (once it finished his retarded turn) and bombing AEO and can really help you take air sup back by destroying the building power of your opponent. Moreover, the awhassa with enough speed will demand some time to the asf to be shot down (the asf being slower), and in THAT scenario, having trailing enemy asf is a big problem.

Shit I realized I was thinkin of a map with such configuration as Seton's. The logic is different on a land map where air is more powerful overall because of its speed in opposition to land units speed. Same would apply on a small map i.e. 10x10 or close.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 17 Jul 2012, 13:29

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T12:27:40+02:00

You certainly know your ASF V! My suggestion to use the CZAR as bait certainly is not the ideal situation for the CZAR player. I do believe that it may be your best chance if you want a CZAR while someone has a larger ASF force due to your large diversion of resources. You really drove home the point that the CZAR is not meant to combat ASF on equal mass/energy terms. ASF does seem to be the best counter to CZAR out of all units. I was merely suggesting a way in which it might not be completely useless when facing such a hard counter. In many situations where you are countered in terms of unit matchup, you must try and pull off a more advanced maneuver to at least attempt making up for their initial advantage. The all ASF player would have to make a huge maneuvering mistake in trying to engage the CZAR with enemy ASF trailing them for a long period for the CZAR team to have any chance. Knowing that the enemy has such a huge ASF force, the CZAR player may choose to hold the experimental in secure ally territory. The opposing team would have to cross a great distance if they wish to engage it with their ASF. This seems to be the CZAR team's best chance to do what they can to deal with the enemy ASF before they reach the CZAR. Once they reach it, it's over. Any plan to have the CZAR survive must force enemy ASF to travel a long distance through your allied forces so that they will not be able to drop the CZAR in a single pass.

If nothing else, at least I stated the obvious in that you should not send your CZAR into enemy territory against an overwhelming ASF. Make them at least lose some ASF and wrecks over your territory if they decide to fly on your side and kill it. Kamikaze into a pushing opposing ground force or forward base certainly is another option. Just be sure that your team has a chance to recover the wreck. Crashing it behind enemy lines doesn't seem like a good idea unless you cause around twice the mass damage as the CZAR is worth. You lose the mass and they gain most of it.

I like your idea of sandbox testing a scenario. Unfortunately, I cannot get my FA patched from 3.596 no securom thus far. Perhaps, I will go check a local game store for a boxed version this week(not a good chance of them having it right?)

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 17 Jul 2012, 12:27

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-17T04:31:38+02:00

Hum.
I admit I didn't test that, but your claims sound weird to me.

- First your opponent knows a CZAR is coming and doesn't see your asf trying to get sneaky ... curious situation
- Second, 250 asf will shoot down your CZAR in one pass, and then you will just rape the 150 asf (Even if you lost some asf in the first pass)
- There is (IMHO) no way you can rape 100 asf fast enough before the CZAR dies, and once it's dead you're on your own.
At that point it would still be 1:1 , the 150 asf group would have the angle advantage which can be tricky to make up for but it's doable. Bottom line, i'm pretty sure it's not worth it.

We can test if if you want, I will focus on the CZAR with my 250 asf, ignoring your asf attacking me from behind.
Once the CZAR dead, with my 200+ I will just patrol and wait for the rape of your 150 asf ^^. Wanna try ?

If you are talking about bates that work, you should try the continental + asf mix. Equal mass, the mix versus asf only will win. But then this is sandbox like tests, good luck to do that in game

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 17 Jul 2012, 04:31

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-16T19:13:14+02:00

CZAR's dps is roughly split evenly vs air and ground so the hypothetical of it vs equal mass of ASF doesn't really do it justice. If you put the CZAR vs an equal mass with half the mass worth of SAM and half ASF then let the CZAR crash into a base or all the SAM at the end, I think that it will not be far behind in causing mass loss. Of course, the last thing you want to send your CZAR into is ASF and the second to last is SAM. Also, the CZAR supports its air and ground units, not the other way around. If you expect it to survive, send it in after your own ASF. You have all the power to force the enemy ASF to fly through every AA unit you have on the map to get to the CZAR if they really want it dead before anything else. Try baiting the CZAR by letting it be seen where a large force of enemy ASF may attempt to engage. Have your own ASF in position to fly in from the flank 5-10 seconds before the enemy reachs the CZAR. Make sure your ASF bank in time to follow along behind theirs. Each of your own ASF only needs <10 seconds to kill an enemy ASF. If you have a CZAR +150 ASF and the enemy has 250 ASF (roughly equivalent mass), then with a reasonable execution of this maneuver you could have the enemy force at 100 ASF by the time they engage and instantly kill the CZAR. You proceed to win the air battle with potentially a 3:2 advantage at that point. You reclaim all the mass from the CZAR and ASF. Obviously, this would be somewhat difficult to pull off without practice, but what isn't. It certainly hinges on that 5-10s window where your ASF are free to take pot shots at the enemy ASF. You also have to come in at a good angle or you will be shot at before they reach the CZAR by a 5:3 superior ASF force. A smart opponent will veer a large force of ASF to take on your own, and continue the rest on to the CZAR. I would give him the advantage at this point, however we are still talking about a CZAR that is really only 50% or less designed to take on ASF. A much simpler way to try and do this same battle is simply to force the ASF numbers to excessive amounts, then the aoe of the CZAR has a greater effect. You still want to have your ASF engages in front of the CZAR, but you do not need the strange bait and intercept maneuver. If the enemy ASF somehow manages to fire on the CZAR before your own ASF engages their ASF, then you are completely wasting the CZAR. Also, it helps if you have their ASF kill it close to your own base instead of theirs if the crash will not win you the game, so you can reclaim it.

The fact that the CZAR can store 150 air units is also of note for sneaky tactics. Having 150 units hidden can certainly make your opponent commit a force that is not large enough. Uncertain of this, but you could even have allies hide some ASF of their own in it if that is possible. Just do not forget to deploy them before it gets blown up

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 16 Jul 2012, 19:13

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-16T02:09:12+02:00

CZAR does the job of about 20 strat bombers, except it leaves a big gift of mass in an easy to reclaim fashion.

I like the Blk Ops UEF flying fortress, with its strong flak cannons. It doesn't do much to ground units, but it's great to support other units with, to protect from air attacks and to help kill ground/above sea units that don't have strong AA near it.

Statistics: Posted by Varaxis — 16 Jul 2012, 02:09

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-10T22:41:32+02:00

I've always seen the CZAR as a big multi-role unit. Its a create factory when it is being held in reserve. It kills bases, T4s, and ACUs very well if it can get past the ASFs and T3 sams, which it is NOT effective against. It is effective against gunships and light air. It can also take down navies without cruiser support.

FunkOff wrote:
Icy wrote:On the topic of Czars, can we get some clarification as to whether using the beam cannon to kill ASF swarms is considered a creative use of game mechanics or an exploit? (I won't explain it any more than this right now, as you can kill ridiculous numbers of ASF in seconds.)

Seems like a creative use of game mechanics. If it ends up being a huge problem we can probably just lower CZAR altitude.

It is also preventable with a bit of ASF micro. Umm, lowering the CZAR altitude may also affect its flak effectiveness though. So be careful if that happens.

Statistics: Posted by regabond — 10 Jul 2012, 22:41

Re: CZARs Purpose

2012-07-09T00:55:52+02:00

Icy wrote:
On the topic of Czars, can we get some clarification as to whether using the beam cannon to kill ASF swarms is considered a creative use of game mechanics or an exploit? (I won't explain it any more than this right now, as you can kill ridiculous numbers of ASF in seconds.)

Seems like a creative use of game mechanics. If it ends up being a huge problem we can probably just lower CZAR altitude.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 09 Jul 2012, 00:55