Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T21:32:50+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
I think the better ways of nerfing PD creep are buffing it's counters. Right now, you can only stop PD creep early through either TML or tank/gunship rush... one they get a lot of PDs or TMD/flak, these don't work. I think if MMLs were better at taking down PD, we'd see less PD push. Also, we can't directly new PD because they are necessary to stop direct fire units, including upgraded ACUs, which are really strong.

It is worse in the following sense:
If you make the gunship stronger that will have an influence on the whole range of potential targets for the gunship. So you would have to increase the health of an ACU to keep the balance between gunships and ACUs. But then with the stronger ACU, you would have to rebalance t2 land units. ad infinitum.
Its a bit different with MMLs though, because they have limited use.
And its of course an option to increase MML damage by 10% and add 10% to PD build time.
If that is not enough, make the T2 ACU engeneering suite 10% more costly. These are all changes with quite a strong influence on T2 PD imbalance and not so much influence on other aspects of the game.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 11 Jul 2012, 21:32

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T18:50:42+02:00

rootbeer23 wrote:
pip wrote:
DilliDalli wrote:Often with early t2 pd the limiting factor is mass anyway.

Yes, and increasing buildtime actually ease their building in some other way, because it requires less mass per tick.

does not compute

pip wrote:
I have the impression the problem is more about the t2 engineering suit being affordable too soon / fast.

There is no tech 2 building that affects offensive use of T2 PD but the T2 PD, so why would you want to rebalance all tech 2 buildings to achieve a nerf of T2 PD, instead of rebalancing the T2 PD?

You didn't understand what I mean.

1) If an engineer or ACU building a t2 pd consumes 34 mass per tick to achieve it in a given time, if the required time to build it is doubled, then it will consume only 17 mass per tick, meaning it's somehow easier to build (it doesn't consume all your mass as easily). Sure, the T2 ACU will need twice more time to finish it (alone), but it'll drain much less mass, so he'll steadily build it. I'm not sure it's a real nerf, unless mass / energy cost is also modified a bit.

2) I don't want to change all T2 buildings, just the one unit that builds them the most efficiently = t2 ACU, who also, as Zep said, can build TMD and shields to protect the t2 pd. And it's not a deep change, it's just a matter of delaying the t2 ACU to allow more room for offense at t2.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 18:50

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T18:15:47+02:00

Probably because it also come with TMD (makind MML useless), shields, and probably t2 pgen.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Jul 2012, 18:15

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T18:03:53+02:00

pip wrote:
DilliDalli wrote:Often with early t2 pd the limiting factor is mass anyway.

Yes, and increasing buildtime actually ease their building in some other way, because it requires less mass per tick.

does not compute

pip wrote:
I have the impression the problem is more about the t2 engineering suit being affordable too soon / fast.

There is no tech 2 building that affects offensive use of T2 PD but the T2 PD, so why would you want to rebalance all tech 2 buildings to achieve a nerf of T2 PD, instead of rebalancing the T2 PD?

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 11 Jul 2012, 18:03

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T17:37:08+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
Often with early t2 pd the limiting factor is mass anyway.

Yes, and increasing buildtime actually ease their building in some other way, because it requires less mass per tick. So it needs to be carefully thought. It may be good to increase t2 pd buildtime, but values have to be tested thoroughly to prevent other issues.

I have the impression the problem is more about the t2 engineering suit being affordable too soon / fast. It's much harder to pd creep with t2 engies assited by t1 engies because they can be killed easily, whereas it's really hard to kill the ACU (of course).

The t3 engy suit takes much longer to get (6000 buildtime) compared to the t2 one (900 buildtime only!), even taking into account the gap in tech. I believe that if the engy suit took longer to get, you would need to be more offensive at t2, and team games would not be so much focused on : get t2 engy upgrade then build firebases, but more : build a t2 fac and get t2 engies and units before thinking about pd creeping with ACU.

Personnally, I'd increase t2 engy suit costs to: mass = 1000, energy = 36000, buildtime = 2000. That would delay it enough.
T2 engy suit would then not be a no brain upgrade to get anymore, because being a sitting duck for twice longer really means something at early t2, and all pd creep would be delayed by some minutes / would be harder to do with engineers.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 17:37

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T15:39:44+02:00

I think the point of an increase in build time is to reduce its offensive and creeping effectiveness, if you're building in defense it won't be hard to get engies to assist and make up for the build rate loss.

Often with early t2 pd the limiting factor is mass anyway.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 11 Jul 2012, 15:39

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T15:37:04+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Don't try and argue that a nerf really isn't a nerf.

No. It is a real nerf.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 11 Jul 2012, 15:37

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T15:21:37+02:00

Don't try and argue that a nerf really isn't a nerf.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 11 Jul 2012, 15:21

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T15:17:35+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
I think the better ways of nerfing PD creep are buffing it's counters. Right now, you can only stop PD creep early through either TML or tank/gunship rush... one they get a lot of PDs or TMD/flak, these don't work. I think if MMLs were better at taking down PD, we'd see less PD push. Also, we can't directly new PD because they are necessary to stop direct fire units, including upgraded ACUs, which are really strong.

With HP and DPS unchanged PDs would still be an effective counter to ACUs. A higher buildtime would have an impact where the ACU would be stopped, meaning you would have to build them further away from the front and then retreat the mobile units which are unable to face the ACU. I think it suits a defensive weapon to be applied in the general context of a retreat.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 11 Jul 2012, 15:17

Re: Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T14:51:19+02:00

I think the better ways of nerfing PD creep are buffing it's counters. Right now, you can only stop PD creep early through either TML or tank/gunship rush... one they get a lot of PDs or TMD/flak, these don't work. I think if MMLs were better at taking down PD, we'd see less PD push. Also, we can't directly new PD because they are necessary to stop direct fire units, including upgraded ACUs, which are really strong.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 11 Jul 2012, 14:51

Increase build time of T2 pd

2012-07-11T11:10:06+02:00

Oftentimes one can see T2 pd used offensively, given that it is superior to equal cost moving units.
Examples of that is the turtlecreep maneuver or when an ACU is the first and only unit approaching a choke point
to secure it with PD, not by attacking with some units. Extreme example is the T3 ACU hopping out of a transport all alone in the enemy base. Also when there is a firebase relatively close to an opponents
main base or some other cruicial point on the map, there is little choice then to block the firebase expansion with shields
and PD, which results in a no man's land for units up until the T4 stage and potentially a PD standoff that consumes a significant portion of available resources but gives no benefit except not loosing the standoff.
If the build time of point defenses was bigger, it would give more time to counter the forming of a firebase with lower
tech units, would give more time to plan a counter strategy that is not just an opposing firebase and it would also require
to first take control of a piece of land with mobile units before a base can be established. This would still make point defenses worthwhile and superior against an equal cost mobile army, only slower to establish on the battle field.

Statistics: Posted by rootbeer23 — 11 Jul 2012, 11:10