Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-26T00:18:06+02:00

It would be great if somebody could think of a third way, so to speak. Balance changes being trialled in a mod mean most people won't play it (for the same reason as me or perhaps for any number of other reasons), and I can see why Pilot finds it frustrating to then have people complain about balance changes. But the fact remains that people aren't playing the mod.

Second option, just implement all changes directly into FAF to force testing. This carries all sorts of other problems though as discussed above (also people may start to leave if they perceive the game to be being regularly “broken”).

The only suggestion I can make would be to have some sort of unignorable banner showing what changes are proposed and strongly advising people to use the mod if they think any of the changes might not be to their liking. This could theoretically have avoided the Seton's players unhappiness with T3 navy.

But then of course people have a tendency to just click through warnings, EULAs and anything else that's in the way of where they want to be. Catch-22.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 26 Jul 2012, 00:18

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T23:26:02+02:00

Thats what the forum is for Euk, we can politely discuss the strengths and weaknesses of your proposals. (As well as dish out lots of abuse for no reason )

The more people who test the better. I regret not doing so much testing myself.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 25 Jul 2012, 23:26

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T22:53:37+02:00

I do think that there's a lot of truth in saying that less experienced players may not feel confident enough to correctly assess balance, it definitely applies to me. I just don't think that my skill is anywhere near good enough to be able to correctly identify imbalances.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 25 Jul 2012, 22:53

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T22:45:09+02:00

So replay will break every 2 days. Same as game balance, crashes,.. Not a good idea.

There is a reason for that mod : having a patch working at least properly.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 22:45

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T22:42:28+02:00

I have modified my suggestion a bit.

Make balance testing mod the default. At least for custom games. Rather than not have it.

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 22:42

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T21:14:57+02:00

Test mod lets you experiment with new features and visualize your feedback through a replay. Feedback is welcome as long as it is constructive and accompanied by the replay and any other factual information. <- Took me a little while to understand the importance of replays. You may have noticed the previous walls of text.

Statistics: Posted by Myrdral — 25 Jul 2012, 21:14

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:59:25+02:00

1. Someone don't like XXX about balance.
2. They post it.
3. I eventually change and test the tweak in the balance mod.
4. If nobody say nothing about from the test, it's going on the next patch.

The step you miss is between 3 and 4.
You can't complain about a change that will be made in the next patch when that patch is release.
The change logs thread show the change, you can test it, so if it made it to the patch, it's your fault for not telling me it sucks.

The balance mod is there so I can test several solution to a problem without releasing patches every day.

But then you can go back to 1. After some testing.

What I don't like is people complaining in chat, not posting on the forum, and for every change made.
If they are so concerned about balance to rant all day long, they should be concerned enough to test between 3 and 4.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 20:59

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:56:26+02:00

So the current FAF is a test mod to exploring balance changes, at the same time, everyone needs to play the balance mod to explore the balance changes, and if you don't you have no right to complain about the balance changes. Did I get that right?

Hey if you're doing what I'm suggesting already then I have no complaints!! So why do we have the balance testing mod? I am still confused on that one.

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 20:56

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:40:55+02:00

But 3615 IS a test mod ! All of them are !

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 20:40

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:08:05+02:00

No, It's not.

I'm saying, put the balance testing changes in FAF. The main version. Put a link to the changes in the MOTD. THEN you will get discussion. The segregation is a REAL barrier to entry for everyone.

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 20:08

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:01:51+02:00

What you describing is *exactly* like how it's happening now.

Balance change : official, in the wiki
On test : viewtopic.php?f=36&t=1357

For testing ? It's in the lobby, Balance Test Mod !

But as I get almost 0 feedback in the forum, it's just me deciding of everything.

As each patch is an evolution of the previous one, you can make comment on the current too.

The balance test mod is there because I'm updating it while coding it, so you can see any problem before releasing it. It's the community QA service

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 20:01

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T20:00:36+02:00

right. sorry. Wasn't clear. I was implying the third solution

put the changes right into FAF so that players actively test it out. Make the change logs clear explaining why. Actually get testing done.

If the balance is wrong, change it back. Communicating with users what's going on and getting them to test it out, rather than blaming people who are just looking for a game of FA Is bad strategy.

A normal player. Like for example, me. Would see a balance testing mod and think:

Well that's in development and needs to be tested, but I don't have enough skill and understanding in this game to really provide any meaningful feedback. Besides to properly test it, I'd need to start cross referencing changes, looking into why they were changed, then deliberately attempt those strategies to see how they've changed, in an environment where your opponents are expecting those tests. That's a hell of alot of work and setup, for a non meaningful test of a low skill player.

See. I'm wrong to think like this, because there is a possibility I might discover a crash, I might discover an abusive way to use the changes, and changes that effect the balance at a lower level of play arn't things to ignore.

So what's better:
Only a select number of players who believe they are strong enough at the game to make meaningful insights into the effects of a balance patch,
OR
Just having everyone test it generally in actual non staged gameplay to see if any problems arise? I don't see why the balancing has being separated out.

Of course I could be missing something obvious. I am the dumb type. There may be something wrong with me

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 20:00

Re: Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T19:39:13+02:00

Ok.

Two solutions :
- Balancing is not opened. Only a few players decide what do to, and you have no right to say anything about it.
- Balancing is opened. Anybody can test the changes, give feedback, advices, datas, well, anything meaningful to help balancing the game.

The second one is the one we are using.

So yes, it's a fact : If you don't participate in the balancing forum, you can't complain about any balance change. It's not difficult, it's just a double click on a icon in the lobby.

But maybe you prefer the first solution ? Or I should listen to people that say nothing by reading their mind maybe ?

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 19:39

Question: Why is there a balance testing mod?

2012-07-25T19:26:21+02:00

Given that FAF is still RC3. I do not see a problem with just testing in FAF.

It strikes me as a passive aggressive way to silence complaints. "You should of run balance testing if you thought it was a bad move."

I am the paranoid type though.

Statistics: Posted by Ghoti — 25 Jul 2012, 19:26