Forged Alliance Forever

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-14T19:17:01+02:00

"Only good counter for Corsairs is t3 air". I guess that sums up why the Corsairs should not be able to behave like this (at least not so well). Thinking about it, it's more like flying Hoplites (same kind of weapon, long range).
Thanks for your post ZLORD, it is honest and gives deeper insight into Corsairs uses.

And yes, you're really impressive to find such tactics!

Statistics: Posted by pip — 14 Nov 2011, 19:17

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-14T19:18:29+02:00

LOL, long time ago i invented a tactic (mostly for 3603 and other versions with high cost of t3 air) when i use corsairs just like in that replay, but in case of enemy interceptors i retreat to flacks that always follow the way i want to attack - looks like a mobile safe zone for my t2 bombers , it is like when you using tanks to attak and planes to antiair and i am using planes for attack and tanks for antiair, so even t2 aeon ints can not block me totally from using t2 bombers.
i can only fail with microing t2 bombers or with retreating with my flacks^^ (aeons were pushing with shields and flacks, but i had stealth army half t2 bots half flacks, so i can still just run away)

also very cool in team games: you have very mobile units that can help ally, protect from any drops, snipe any stuff
(only tryed on 3v3 isis once, was have to retreat with flacks many times)

i don't really care how you will try to fix it or what you will do, i am too happy that i can still discover something new

[edit]: corsairs have worst antiair, it is much worse then other factions do...
[edit2]: Uber was talking that corsairs are like avroras... but avroras has many counters (almost everything but not t1 land will counter them) and only good counter for corsairs is t3 air

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 14 Nov 2011, 18:55

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-13T13:10:59+02:00

When mercy range was reduced, you could start comparing them a bit better. Before, yes, you couldn't, but now, mercies have some chance of dying before they reach their target.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 13 Nov 2011, 13:10

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-12T15:07:02+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
This is, obviously, an option. However, I don't know of many people that go T2 bombers without first some control over the air situation. I'm sure you have played this game enough to know that. This is why the more reliance on t2 static (or even mobile) AA to begin with.
With the other factions (including Aeon, now that we reduced the mercy range for the same reason) not being able to do this without repercussions, there seems no reason why Cybran needs to be able to do it. Yes, faction diversity, but then faction diversity doesn't usually extend to something of this level.
Corsairs have been used a lot without having this as an issue, so it's not like they're completely useless without it. I'm not sure on uber's call that "It will remove something from Cybran" because nobody knew that they could do it until recently, so they're not missing out on much.

you cant compare mercys and t2 bombers, how many t2 bombers do you need for do the same that mercys?, and actually i saw mercys flying over flaks and killing coms withtout one casualty by flaks

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 12 Nov 2011, 15:07

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T22:26:43+02:00

Its not that hard to counter rocket bots killing your PDs. If you are aeon it is hard countered by the intel upgrade and if your anyone else (ESPECILY sera) just send an int/scout over and foucus fire on the stealth generator. Sera airscout gets 30 second view time after death.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 11 Nov 2011, 22:26

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T11:41:43+02:00

I read that mobile stealth generators would be useless? Countered by an interceptor?

No, the interceptor provides vision for a moment but as soon as the interceptor is gone (either by flying away or by being shot down), the vision is gone and so the units are gone again.

You'd need continuous vision against the mobile stealth generators in order to counter them and that means sacrificing your air force (well at least a big portion of it).

I have been continuously successful in using hoplites with mobile stealth generators. Against Shielded defence positions (Point defence vision range is lower than the Hoplite's firing range) as well as mobile armies. In both conditions my opponent tried to counter them with air units to provide vision and in both conditions he failed to completely destroy my attack.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 11 Nov 2011, 11:41

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T06:34:53+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
Corsairs have been used a lot without having this as an issue, so it's not like they're completely useless without it. I'm not sure on uber's call that "It will remove something from Cybran" because nobody knew that they could do it until recently, so they're not missing out on much.

Yes, I agree. Even with this change, the Corsair is unique because:
1) It fires early during its dive-bomb maneuver, so it can destroy targets where a regular bomber would be shot-down on approach. (This is similar to the torp bombers).
2) It has some limited Air to air ability (although from what I've seen it's very poor.. nothing like the UEF Janus..)

It's still a cool unit imo. I don't know if it's balanced vs the UEF Janus or not, but if it's not then I could see buffing it in other ways. It doesn't need this special, micro-heavy exploit to be unique.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 11 Nov 2011, 06:34

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T01:51:30+02:00

This is, obviously, an option. However, I don't know of many people that go T2 bombers without first some control over the air situation. I'm sure you have played this game enough to know that. This is why the more reliance on t2 static (or even mobile) AA to begin with.
With the other factions (including Aeon, now that we reduced the mercy range for the same reason) not being able to do this without repercussions, there seems no reason why Cybran needs to be able to do it. Yes, faction diversity, but then faction diversity doesn't usually extend to something of this level.
Corsairs have been used a lot without having this as an issue, so it's not like they're completely useless without it. I'm not sure on uber's call that "It will remove something from Cybran" because nobody knew that they could do it until recently, so they're not missing out on much.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 11 Nov 2011, 01:51

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T00:33:15+02:00

Since you're so obsessed by this "issue", why not use ints to counter the bombers. Surely if ur opponent invests into t2 factory and t2 bombers, you can make like 5 ints / t2 bombers right ? And don't tell me you can't effectively kill corsairs with ints

(5 ints is even like half mass of a corsair , but I took into account the energy cost as well)

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 11 Nov 2011, 00:33

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-11T00:25:38+02:00

Gowerly wrote:
I *love* hoplites and wagners. They are amazing. They also have the best MMLs. I would take hoplites and wagners over most other factions t2 units. Throw one or two deceivers in there and you need vision to shoot at the hoplites, rendering other t2 bots with reduced effectiveness. Yes, you can sacrifice air units to see them, but then you're sacrificing air units.
Cybran t2 transports are amazing semi-offensive units. They have EMP that affects all t1+t2 units and buildings. It's ridiculous how much harass you can do with it.
Cybran ACU with early stealth and gun is horrible to deal with. Even modestly skilled ACU controllers can do a lot of unreturned damage until the opponent starts to see you. With even basic unit placement you can then punush your enemies for that.
Yes, it's true that you can't go t2 and gun with cybran ACU. It does, however, have a very underused maser upgrade. For the mass cost, it should be used way more. The energy cost is high, but in 3v3/4v4s that's less of an issue.

i want see you taking a t2 bots horde or t2 shielded army with hoplites and wagners
i never see ppl using tranports for attack except with ghettos, a comg with gun and t2 have more hp more regen gun and range you cant compare that with only the stealth, in close combat stealth dont mean nothing if your enemy send his spam more his t2 gun com over the cyb com he is losed, in the time that ppl take maser your enemy can take a mega sniping t2 air army, 10000hp is easy to snipe

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 11 Nov 2011, 00:25

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-10T23:07:31+02:00

I *love* hoplites and wagners. They are amazing. They also have the best MMLs. I would take hoplites and wagners over most other factions t2 units. Throw one or two deceivers in there and you need vision to shoot at the hoplites, rendering other t2 bots with reduced effectiveness. Yes, you can sacrifice air units to see them, but then you're sacrificing air units.
Cybran t2 transports are amazing semi-offensive units. They have EMP that affects all t1+t2 units and buildings. It's ridiculous how much harass you can do with it.
Cybran ACU with early stealth and gun is horrible to deal with. Even modestly skilled ACU controllers can do a lot of unreturned damage until the opponent starts to see you. With even basic unit placement you can then punush your enemies for that.
Yes, it's true that you can't go t2 and gun with cybran ACU. It does, however, have a very underused maser upgrade. For the mass cost, it should be used way more. The energy cost is high, but in 3v3/4v4s that's less of an issue.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 10 Nov 2011, 23:07

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-10T22:05:04+02:00

Karottenrambo wrote:
Armmagedon wrote:about corsairs is true that they have a big advantage respect the other t2 bombers, but actually cybran dont have mobil shields

No, but they have mobile stealth which is unique in the game.
Armmagedon wrote:
have the worst exp by my point of view

A faction with experimentals like Megalith and Monkeylord cant have the worst experimentals in general.
Armmagedon wrote:
the worst ASF

You cant be serious?
Armmagedon wrote:
and the worst t2 units

Why, only because of the Rhino? (I guess you mean land)
Armmagedon wrote:
the worst t1 arty

Thats true
Armmagedon wrote:
the worst com

Not sure
Armmagedon wrote:
the worst transport

What a horrible devastating disadvantage, its a wonder that cybran players are able to win some matches. (Btw you can put mobile stealth in the transporters to have stealth transporters...)

you cant compare shields and stealth, stealth suck like hell vs shields, you only need send some int every some time

ylotha , GC pwn ML, probably not the worst cause uef dont have assault exp, but percies easy pwn a ML, ML is easy killable with t3 units, and ylotha and GC are really more cheap that a megalith.
the soul reaper is the shittest air exp
and the scathys the shittesr finisher exp

about t2 units:
they dont have surfaces amph tank and underwater subs pwn all, rhino suck, the amph tank have mega low range, t2 bots or t2 aeon tanks pwn them, and ofc uef tanks with shields mix pwn them too, rocketbots are useless vs shields and t2 sera bots pwn them if you dont have a mega micro.

ASF:
cybran dont shot like all the others ASF a fast bullet, they send missiles and that take more time in kill one unit and changing objetive. im not sure taht they are really worst but i see that like a disvantage

t1 arty is worst you know

com: the com is the worst, 10000 hp, you need choose between gun and t2 upgrade, you cant upgrade his hp with shields or regen
uef and sera can take the t2 and the gun
and aeon too, if dont take range, and if take the range aeon com pwn.

man i play many with transports and is better transport 8 units like sera that 6 like cyb
and you will say that all faction have 6, and i will say see t2 transports on DB, im bored of post data,nobody care it

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 10 Nov 2011, 22:05

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-10T18:35:51+02:00

Armmagedon wrote:
about corsairs is true that they have a big advantage respect the other t2 bombers, but actually cybran dont have mobil shields

No, but they have mobile stealth which is unique in the game.

Armmagedon wrote:
have the worst exp by my point of view

A faction with experimentals like Megalith and Monkeylord cant have the worst experimentals in general.

Armmagedon wrote:
the worst ASF

You cant be serious?

Armmagedon wrote:
and the worst t2 units

Why, only because of the Rhino? (I guess you mean land)

Armmagedon wrote:
the worst t1 arty

Thats true

Armmagedon wrote:
the worst com

Not sure

Armmagedon wrote:
the worst transport

What a horrible devastating disadvantage, its a wonder that cybran players are able to win some matches. (Btw you can put mobile stealth in the transporters to have stealth transporters...)

Statistics: Posted by Karottenrambo — 10 Nov 2011, 18:35

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-10T18:24:20+02:00

Nobody said Cybran is OP.
If Cybran needs an edge in the T2 air Tier with the Corsair, I'd prefer to give it a proper buff, like more DPS / or more HP or more speed, but not something unfair like static flak impunity. Is that so hard to understand?

Statistics: Posted by pip — 10 Nov 2011, 18:24

Re: The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

2011-11-10T17:49:36+02:00

pip wrote:
Armmagedon wrote:I have empirical proofs for nerf the gunship and some ppl don't want see it.
I posted like 4 data posts, and on the replays of zock you can see how imba are that the gunships.
but seems like at end the balances are only made by one opinion.

Armmageddon, the gunship issue can be fixed by other means than just nerfing t2 gunships (like buffing t1 mobile aa). I agree with your argument about them being too strong / too cheap after seing a few replays (Zock's replays). But I don't know if or how they should be nerfed (less HP? reverse cost like before? or buff t1 mobile AA?). That requires discussion.

if you buff t1 mobile AA bombers will be useless,buff mobil t1 AA will be like nerf all air, and the problem is only the gunship we dont should think change A unit because B unit is OP, we should change only B unit, i dont care if want nerf hp or cost.
but the change should do a gunship with 3.5 hp/mass cost.

about auroras i know that they are good but auroras don't are OP, bombers or gun com easily pwn them

about corsairs is true that they have a big advantage respect the other t2 bombers, but actually cybran dont have mobil shields,have the worst exp by my point of view,the worst ASF and the worst t2 units, the worst t1 arty and the worst com,and the worst transport that's disadvantages for cybran are enough, you dont should change the corsair.

zomg i cant believe that some people thougth that cyb was OP on 3603

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 10 Nov 2011, 17:49