Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Commander TML

2011-11-10T06:03:27+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
Here is the faction diversity:

Cybran/sera TMD fire a single shot with a lot of damage with a long range. Very effective against single missiles, but can be overwhelmed by a barrage.

Aeon TMD: the best TMD locally, will deflect many missiles at once. Weakness is that it is possible to shoot over it, so it is necessary to have TMD sitting next to any of your important units. It is not enough to build TMD between the launcher and your t2 pgen, you must have the TMD at your t2 pgen.

UEF TMD: sucks in all situations. Seems the idea here was to give a very rapid fire tmd, that would be effective against many missiles at once, but it has very low damage per shot, so it is not able to take out any acu missiles even if they are fired directly at it.

If you give aeon the ability to deflect missiles at any height it would be an awesome buff for them.

Fixing UEF TMD is something that should be done.

I don't know about this. I've tested the different faction's TMDs like crazy (in tons of different set ups), and your descriptions don't seem to match my reading of the blueprints or what I've seen in tests.

The UEF TMD is basically the same as the Cybran and the Seraphim, except that it shoots projectiles that take some time to travel so it's more prone to overkill among groups of adjacent TMD (the Cybran beam is nearly instantaneous so you rarely see Cybran TMD waste shots on overkill). The UEF TMD also has a weird (bug?) feature where it will occasionally freak-out and start spinning, and I think this may sometimes throw off its aiming/firing cycle, but I'd have to look for notes or test this again to be sure.
http://supcomdb.com/db/unit_details/2/3/ueb4201
http://supcomdb.com/db/unit_details/2/3/urb4201

In either case, I consider the Aeon TMD to be, easily, the worst of the four. The Aeon TMD has a reputation for being able to stop unlimited amounts of missiles, but the reality is that even groups of Aeon TMD can be overwhelmed by relatively few missiles because the bubble/flare firing rate and attraction mechanisms are.. inconsistent and prone to 'overkill'.

With the other 3 PD, one TMD can shoot down a 2hp tac missile in two shots (with a 2 second refire rate). Because of their range and the speed of the missiles, TMD normally get two shots on a missile if it's aimed at or near the TMD, so a single TMD can normally neutralize a single incoming tac missile.

If I remember correctly, the Cybran and Sera TMD can defeat a Governor's TML barrage if you build just three of them. The Governor fires once every 1.4 seconds, so the TMDs slowly get overwhelmed with their 2 second refire rate, but (IIRC) they can still bring the 4th missile in the barrage down just before it hits. The UEF Buzzkill can keep up with the Cybran and Sera TMD sometimes, but its tendency for overkill and its slightly slower projectile mean that it will occasionally let TMs sneak through.

In contrast, you can build whole fields of Aeon TMD and still see them overwhelmed because they will often all fire a bubble at the first missile, they have a shorter engagement range, and even when they do fire a bubble you will occasionally see a Tac Missile fly through/under the bubble and either hit its original target or another target nearby. This makes the Aeon TMD (almost) useless at protecting shield bubbles and it's also useless in a stand-off vs persistent TML fire. A cybran player can stalemate a UEF fleet of Governors with the Zapper, but in my testing the Aeon player simply cannot hold off continuous TML fire with TMDs. (The Aeon TMD also has lower HP, which makes it easier for errant TMs to bring one down).

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 10 Nov 2011, 06:03

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-20T16:17:12+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
I disagree. The TMD's purpose is to stop tactical missiles. So it should stop tactical missiles. If the ACU's missile flies so high that two out of the four different TMDs can't stop it, it's a bug, not a part of faction diversity.

All TMDs stop tactical missiles. The only difference is at what effective range a particular TMD has, and what specific advantages and disadvantages it has; this is faction diversity which Barry has already explained.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
The part of faction diversity is that the UEF missile has 3HP and that it can be upgraded to a billy tactical nuke. And that the Cybran missile breaks in three child missiles when the first one is shot.

Billy's are nice, but also thoroughly impractical. Cybran has no ACU TML upgrade and so is irrelevant to this discussion.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 20 Oct 2011, 16:17

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-20T15:40:16+02:00

I disagree. The TMD's purpose is to stop tactical missiles. So it should stop tactical missiles. If the ACU's missile flies so high that two out of the four different TMDs can't stop it, it's a bug, not a part of faction diversity.

The part of faction diversity is that the UEF missile has 3HP and that it can be upgraded to a billy tactical nuke. And that the Cybran missile breaks in three child missiles when the first one is shot. Considering that. That missiles HP went down to 1 because it was overpowered otherwise. That OPness bit is also not faction diversity, it's OP. Just like this with the UEF ACU's missiles height.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 20 Oct 2011, 15:40

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-20T03:25:01+02:00

I agree with Barry, its part of the drawbacks when you choose your faction.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 20 Oct 2011, 03:25

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-20T01:22:02+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
you do realize different factions have different flight heights for their tml's?

That is also part of the faction diversity.

People need to start playing more setons/thermo and have some real tml fights, then we wouldn't have these discussions.

Different flight heights aside, every TMD (not only 2), should be able to hit every TML that is in its radius in my opinion. Its the whole point of a TMD and they do so with normal TMLs, why should commander TML be an exception? It already has more HP, its mobile so you can avoid those forwarded TMDs anyway.

Or would you bring back the old flight height for Seraphim BS-Nuke that flew so high, it triggered SMDs up to 3 times, just for the sake of "faction diversity" (in an extreme example). Same story. If you place an SMD you expect it to kill every Nuke that flys through its radius, which it now does thanks to adjusting the nuke-BS flight height.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 20 Oct 2011, 01:22

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-20T00:20:54+02:00

Barry is correct on this point; his description sums it up nicely.

ACU TMLs are fine.

(and if we agree on something... that must mean it's some kind of universal truth )

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 20 Oct 2011, 00:20

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T23:56:22+02:00

you do realize different factions have different flight heights for their tml's?

That is also part of the faction diversity.

People need to start playing more setons/thermo and have some real tml fights, then we wouldn't have these discussions.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 19 Oct 2011, 23:56

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T23:47:22+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
Here is the faction diversity:

Cybran/sera TMD fire a single shot with a lot of damage with a long range. Very effective against single missiles, but can be overwhelmed by a barrage.

Aeon TMD: the best TMD locally, will deflect many missiles at once. Weakness is that it is possible to shoot over it, so it is necessary to have TMD sitting next to any of your important units. It is not enough to build TMD between the launcher and your t2 pgen, you must have the TMD at your t2 pgen.

UEF TMD: sucks in all situations. Seems the idea here was to give a very rapid fire tmd, that would be effective against many missiles at once, but it has very low damage per shot, so it is not able to take out any acu missiles even if they are fired directly at it.

If you give aeon the ability to deflect missiles at any height it would be an awesome buff for them.

Fixing UEF TMD is something that should be done.

its not about buffing TMDs. Its about fixing Commander TMLs flight-height to match that of T2 stationary TMLs.

TMDs should not be touched by this and are a diffrent balance-issue.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 19 Oct 2011, 23:47

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T23:05:51+02:00

Here is the faction diversity:

Cybran/sera TMD fire a single shot with a lot of damage with a long range. Very effective against single missiles, but can be overwhelmed by a barrage.

Aeon TMD: the best TMD locally, will deflect many missiles at once. Weakness is that it is possible to shoot over it, so it is necessary to have TMD sitting next to any of your important units. It is not enough to build TMD between the launcher and your t2 pgen, you must have the TMD at your t2 pgen.

UEF TMD: sucks in all situations. Seems the idea here was to give a very rapid fire tmd, that would be effective against many missiles at once, but it has very low damage per shot, so it is not able to take out any acu missiles even if they are fired directly at it.

If you give aeon the ability to deflect missiles at any height it would be an awesome buff for them.

Fixing UEF TMD is something that should be done.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 19 Oct 2011, 23:05

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T22:49:20+02:00

yes the UEF tmd is bad enough as it is without this bug... the last thing it needs is things like this making it even worse than it already is.

You might as well fix the aeon as being able to launch a 6000 damage missile at any mexes TMD defended or not is kinda bad

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 19 Oct 2011, 22:49

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T22:34:24+02:00

Karottenrambo wrote:
This is not faction diversity, this is just stupid.

If it should be hard to counter with tmd, give the missile more hitpoints.

it already has.

This will not be a nerf to the commanderTML since its already interceptable by cybran and seraphim TMDs.
It makes no sense to deny the other 2factions the counter.

If i build an TMD, i build it because it should interccept TMLs. You are still able to avoid forwarded TMDs of any Faction. They are stationiary and you are mobile. Go figure that one out.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 19 Oct 2011, 22:34

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T22:03:15+02:00

This is not faction diversity, this is just stupid.

If it should be hard to counter with tmd, give the missile more hitpoints.

Statistics: Posted by Karottenrambo — 19 Oct 2011, 22:03

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T20:39:32+02:00

This is faction diversity. Please don't neuter the acu any more than they have already been neutered in the 3599 to 3603 transition. (I am not going to argue with Uberge3k about this point)

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 19 Oct 2011, 20:39

Re: Commander TML

2011-10-19T18:51:06+02:00

/agree

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 19 Oct 2011, 18:51

Commander TML

2011-10-19T18:52:10+02:00

UEF Commander TML flys to high and forwarded TMD is unable to hit it.

Fix to normal TML height pls.

Edit:
This only affects UEF and Aeon TMD .

Seraphim and Cybran TMDs can get up to the needed height.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 19 Oct 2011, 18:42