Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-23T22:22:48+02:00

No, the Mavor should stay a game ender (become one again). A true one. It's been so in SupCom vanilla and going back to that or something similar to that will be the best imo. That was its functionality. Additionally: two artillery in the T3 branch for the UEF, with that kind of purpose? That'd be worse than just a "misplacement" like with the Salvation.

I really don't like the idea of two artilleries, both with one good thing and one bad thing, in that kind of way. Sacrificing damage for accuracy or sacrificing accuracy for damage? In both ways you're likely to have a unit that's weak because it misses something rather than a unit that is strong because it has something.

(Also: my personal idea is that the initial purpose of the names of units should be kept, as well as the first thing the units did when they were introduced)

About the Novax:

As for the Uef-Sat. Buff the vision. So the Uef have an Intel-focused experimental that can harass mexes. Not a game-ender (costing "only 40K" it should not be) but at least used like the Eye of Rhianne.

I think this would be the best answer. A larger intel-unit on a satellite that moves at least as fast as ships and land units, with the ability to strike through mobile shields, but not through static shields (should be possible). Then it is a defence satellite.

As for the salvation: get it to T4. It makes no sense having two artillery in the T3 branch, especially not if one of them is more expensive than almost every experimental.

Additionally. Is it an idea to let all three artilleries (Salvation/Scathis/Mavor) have a range of 80km? The Scathis to have an excellent RoF, huge splash but not much damage per shot. The Salvation to have an even better RoF, but with the sort of weapon as it has now (which works well against shields but not against buildings - even the shield generators won't get down). The Mavor to have pinpoint accuracy, relative low RoF and huge damage per shot (Though lower splash than the scathis).

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 23 Oct 2011, 22:22

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-23T14:56:22+02:00

For neatness sake I wish the Salvation was moved to the T4 tab. Its out of place in T3.

As for gameenders, I guess it has to be one or the other:
* Make them end games. ie. buff them until getting one is a fairly sure win. The concept of a game ender is something that can resolve a stalemate, or shorten a long game. Its a mechanic to limit the length of a game. (like winning with a wonder in civ).

* Make them regular units. ie. make them cheaper until they are usuable. Nerf them to compensate if necessary.

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Personally, I want the Mavor reduced to "regular unit" status, maybe make it a equal in cost to T3 arty but give it good accuracy and low damage, its the "sniper" arty, and then make UEF T3 arty be a pressure arty with high damage, good aoe but low accuracy.

Then buff the Novax massively and make it super expensive, and let it be a game ender.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 23 Oct 2011, 14:56

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T18:43:29+02:00

Recipe for winning an arty standoff. This has been tested hundreds of times on thermo.

Most important aspect of t3 arty is the accuracy, where aeon t3 has a significant advantage. (cybran t3 is almost useless in comparison)

If you can get uef for kennels and seraphim for shields, do it.

Rush t3 aeon arty, with you aeon eye spying the whole time, while you are building. You will be able to put pressure on your opponent while they still don't have shields and force them to begin spamming shields all over. They are likely to be able to defend, however you will progressively put more and more pressure on them as you spam more and more t3 aeon arty and FOCUS fire. Focusing fire is vastly more effective with aeon t3 arty vs any other faction.

If you haven't won after making 3 or 4 arty(they should have excellent shields all over), then it is time to switch to salvation or paragon.

Salvation is more efficient in terms of dps per mass, but in arty games, timing/focus/target choice is key. By the time you build salvation your opponents will have most of the juicy targets well defended and are likely to be bombarding you.

Hopefully this will be taken into account while choosing a new balance for t3/t4 arty etc.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 21 Oct 2011, 18:43

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T13:36:03+02:00

I never built one and I'm playing since the release of FA.
First there is a balance problem. The Seraphim and Aeon ones are REAL gameenders. The Cybran is meh at best and the UEF ones are crap (The Sat does not deal enough DPS ans the arty is crap).
Second there is a problem of redundancy. You can build 3 T3 artys for the cost of one T4 game-ender. If you are Cybran or UEF there is no need to build one T4...T3 have better DPS and the opponent needs to snipe 3 buildings instead of one.

For myself I would do both. Nerf the cost to around 200K mass (2 T3 artys) and buff the damage. They are GAME-ENDERS. They should end games.
The Aeon one is ok, the Seraphim one could "maybe" be more resistant to SMD but it's still ok.
The Mavor should be reverted to the Vanilla one. MASSIVE damage per shell with pinpoint accuracy.
The Scathis should have the same Dps as the vanilla Mavor but with spread. You cannot snipe the com but you will wreck his base in no time.
As for the Uef-Sat. Buff the vision. So the Uef have an Intel-focused experimental that can harass mexes. Not a game-ender (costing "only 40K" it should not be) but at least used like the Eye of Rhianne.

Then we have the same problem for T3 Arty. 100K mass for this tiny DPS is way too much. I never built one...for the price of 4 Monkeys, the choice is easy.
I would do the same as for T2 artys.
-Either leave the price but reduce the spread and buff the DPS. It costs but it works.
-Or reduce the price heavily and leave the DPS and spread. It's cheap but the "quality" is also meh.

In FA all arty (except the mobile ones) have the same problem. It's expensive, have massive spread, long reload time and a non-competitive DPS.
Results?
Nobody builds them. And if you are forced to do so (naval that harass your coast), you cry because of their ineffectiveness.
(Having 3 T2 artys and seeing them struggle to destroy ONE destroyer....it's kinda depressing)

Statistics: Posted by Kekouse — 21 Oct 2011, 13:36

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T10:12:43+02:00

I think funk is right! also with the values of decreasing the costs of t3 stat arty.

but furthermore i would also change the uef sat - as it is now it is useless. the dmg should be at least 2x (150 dps at the moment) and the vision radius should be increased too maybe also 2x or even 3x as the current. so you can really use it as defense weapon vs t3 bots/ships or deal some dmg vs t4s etc. but you cant beat any stat shield with it - but it still works as spy eye where you can see if the opponent gets a game ender, massive nukes, tele laser.. etc. it would be really a fun toy. and in that stage of the game it would not be op - it is still very expensive and as mentioned before 2 stat shields can defend pretty good vs it so it wont rape ur base.

Statistics: Posted by Batmansrueckkehr — 21 Oct 2011, 10:12

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T09:53:41+02:00

We did not said "Make them worse! Doeh!".
But cheaper and less strong, so that you actually see them in games would be a beginning.

Imo:
Currently all gameenders are more or less the same, thats boring.
Do we even even need a "classic" gameender? Every faction has already a "bombard-the-enemy-to-death"-unit: t3 artillery. Another very expensive unit, that does the same job just better is nonsense redundancy.

Scathis and Salvation for example could be very interesting fancy units, but their potential is wasted with the gameender concept. :/

Statistics: Posted by Karottenrambo — 21 Oct 2011, 09:53

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T00:26:32+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
-_V_- wrote:Why are you even talking about the balance of those very particular mega mega units ? I think that if you let your opponent build it, you deserve a nice explosion. Don't nerf them.

I don't think anybody here has suggested a nerf?

I took what Kryo and Karotten said for a disguised request for nerf , as in "cheaper light game enders"

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 21 Oct 2011, 00:26

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-21T00:01:28+02:00

All gameenders together are propably <5% of all units, so the 5%-rule is not broken!

Statistics: Posted by Karottenrambo — 21 Oct 2011, 00:01

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T22:53:38+02:00

lebensnebel wrote:
So, summary of my idea:
Mavor/Scathis: -33% cost, +33% DPS
All T3 heavy arty: -50% cost
Image

Funk, you really don't like the 5% rule, right? I still think it's a good idea. Stop ignoring it .

Regarding balance, as already has been said, the paragon only gives you ressources not build power. If two player build game enders and finish around the same time, the one building a paragon looses. You either need to be able to stall long enough to bring it to work or be in a big team game and sacrifice an ally or two.
That's why it needs to be cheaper than the other game enders.

The 5% rule is unprecedented, unfounded and self-defeating. 5% is so small, you can never prove that it would be useful.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 20 Oct 2011, 22:53

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T22:43:56+02:00

I think that the game enders falls in the "never used" units category

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 20 Oct 2011, 22:43

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T22:41:49+02:00

So, summary of my idea:
Mavor/Scathis: -33% cost, +33% DPS
All T3 heavy arty: -50% cost
Image

Funk, you really don't like the 5% rule, right? I still think it's a good idea. Stop ignoring it .

Regarding balance, as already has been said, the paragon only gives you ressources not build power. If two player build game enders and finish around the same time, the one building a paragon looses. You either need to be able to stall long enough to bring it to work or be in a big team game and sacrifice an ally or two.
That's why it needs to be cheaper than the other game enders.

Statistics: Posted by lebensnebel — 20 Oct 2011, 22:41

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T22:27:59+02:00

Paragon is the only true game-ending device. Build as many Salvations as you need.

You're better off building T3 arty then building Mavor or Scathis. You can put increasing amounts of pressure on your opponents. Three dukes actually do more damage/second (1650 to 1500) than a Mavor, and cost less 270k to 299k.

Scathis has high damage and good range but you wont be precise with it.

Yolona Oss is awesome, but also stupid. If you as Seraphim built a YO and your opponent as Aeon built a Paragon, you are screwed. He builds 10 SMD before you can deplete is anti-nuke reserves and then he builds Salvations and there is nothing you can do.

This happened to me yesterday in an FFA. I lost as Seraphim against an Aeon opponent with a Paragon. My YO couldnt get enough nukes in the air quickly enough before he had 2 Salvations and 15 GCs hitting me.

There should not be a hard-counter to a game-ender. I say buff the Mavor, Scathis and YO.

Maybe YO should have every SMD in range fire a missile at it.It wouldnt matter how many SMD you build as each one would fire an anti-nuke at the YO each time. Then you could last for at least 7 shots probably a few more as the missiles rebuild, but you could not hold it off indefinitely. Your base would still hold out longer than against Salvations or Scathis/Mavor.

Statistics: Posted by Treble — 20 Oct 2011, 22:27

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T20:44:32+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Why are you even talking about the balance of those very particular mega mega units ? I think that if you let your opponent build it, you deserve a nice explosion. Don't nerf them.

I don't think anybody here has suggested a nerf?

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 20 Oct 2011, 20:44

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T20:38:10+02:00

Why are you even talking about the balance of those very particular mega mega units ? I think that if you let your opponent build it, you deserve a nice explosion. Don't nerf them.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 20 Oct 2011, 20:38

Re: Considering the price of Game-Enders

2011-10-20T19:05:49+02:00

I'd rather see the Mavor's accuracy increased a bit. The firing randomness of 0.22 to 0.18 would be more than enough imo. This would interfere with FunkOff's idea though.

I've used the Mavor several times on 81*81 maps and even though it is better at the huge range than the scathis, I believe it is weak. The mavor can take an enemy base down but it'd take a loooooong time.

Considering the Scathis. I didn't use it much but the accuracy is extremely bad on long ranges (but on shorter ranges with that high RoF it seems extremely powerful).

The Ylona can be stopped by 8 SMDs but 8SMDs is an extreme amount in terms of resources required.

The Paragon? If you have enough Build Power (this goes with the number of SCUs you have in the field), it's a good one imo. You can then afford a lot of SMDs and a lot of shields (for the Mavor and Scathis).

Anyway, the fact that people don't like Game Enders is also a point of interest. What would you do? Tone them all down, to a similar level of effectiveness for cost, or keep them at true GE level, also with similar effectiveness/cost ratios?

I'd personally go for the true GE version and with that, FunkOff's idea seems to be a very good one. Perhaps work form there?

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 20 Oct 2011, 19:05