Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-11-06T22:18:57+02:00

Armmagedon wrote:
t1 fact: 20
t2 fact: 40
t3 fact: 60

as you can see the t2 fact build x2 an t3 fact x3 i cant see wht you want.

if we bufff t2 or t3 fact, t1 fact spam will be useless, people will try to go really fast to upgrade, i prefeer the game like is now with tons of t1 spam, i don't want tech races.

I agree with you that T1 spam is actually one of the best parts of SupCom FA's balance, but I don't think T2 and T3 factory buffs (like the ones I'm talking about), would change that. If anything, my proposal makes T1 factories more powerful because it's harder to mass-assist T2 and T3 factories.

Besides, who cares if people want to rush for T2 and T3 factories? That balance just depends on their cost, and at the moment their cost is (arguably) pretty high. Anyone who neglects T1 factories on a small map will quickly find themselves overwhelmed by T1 spam, and that's exactly the way it should be imo.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Besides, the complaint is that the T2/T3 factories aren't powerful enough. The only way to change that is by directly or indirectly nerfing the power of other construction units.

Good point. I also had some other ideas to buff the Hive (the kennel is already freakishly useful when it comes to salvage, and I assume that this has only gotten better now that we have naval wrecks).

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 22:18

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-11-06T13:44:27+02:00

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 01,URB0101
see database of factory -_-
build rate:

t1 fact: 20
t2 fact: 40
t3 fact: 60

as you can see the t2 fact build x2 an t3 fact x3 i cant see wht you want.

if we bufff t2 or t3 fact, t1 fact spam will be useless, people will try to go really fast to upgrade, i prefeer the game like is now with tons of t1 spam, i don't want tech races.

if you want more build rate spam engies or build more facts, don't give more advantages for turtle game

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 06 Nov 2011, 13:44

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-11-06T12:43:44+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
This would obviously be a nerf for the Hive and the Kennel

Hives and kennels are as powerful as Aeon and Seraphim T3 engineers. Those will receive the same indirect nerf so I don't think it'll be much of a problem.

If you start building other structures or experimentals, the Hives and Kennels are just as powerful as they are now because there won't change anything in that area. Besides, the complaint is that the T2/T3 factories aren't powerful enough. The only way to change that is by directly or indirectly nerfing the power of other construction units.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 06 Nov 2011, 12:43

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-11-06T01:51:55+02:00

I like this idea, but I think you could take it much, much further.

The only problem is that engineer assist is a major part of SupCom's identity. It's something that people love so it's hard to talk about nerfing it heavily.

However, in my efforts to find better inter-tier balance I decided that one way to keep T1 and T2 relevant at T3 was to bottleneck T3 production. If you can't just add hundreds of engies to your T3 land fac then you'll be forced to use multiple facs simultaneously, some building T3 bots and some building T2 tanks or MML or whatever.

So I've had an idea, which I never tested, to increase the build time 'cost' for all factory units by 2-3x, then increase factory build rates by the same factor. (So unassisted build times were the same, but assisting units couldn't have as much of an effect, kind of like the SMLs and SMDs).

Then you could tweak factories as follows:
T1 fac=1x build rate (so current build rates stay the same for unassisted factories and t1 factory spam is still common).
T2 fac=1.5x build rate (so it could build units 50% faster than vanilla FA)
T3 fac=2x build rate (so it could build units twice as fast as vanilla FA. Instead of 40 secons for a Loyalist and 80 seconds for a Brick, it'd be 20secs and 40secs).

This would obviously be a nerf for the Hive and the Kennel, which is a shame, but I thought it might ultimately improve gameplay by supporting a broader mixture of unit tiers. This wouldn't be good enough on its own, of course, but if you did a bit of rebalancing with T3 units to make them less effective vs swarms (mostly by fixing the veterancy system), plus some other tweaks to make units more specialized, then you could encourage people to counter T3 land with swarms of T2 and T1.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 01:51

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-22T19:07:56+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
T1 engineer - 10.4 mass/buildrate
T2 engineer - 16 mass/buldrate
T3 engineer - 32.7 mass/buldrate

I know the figures, that's why i said it wasn't necessarily stupid, just a choice. Obviously most people go for the t1 eng, but those are mainly an issue late game because of the unit cap, right ?I'm not sure if the eng building ranges are different if they are t1/t2/t3. I mean do the t3 eng build from further ranger ? not sure on that.

you can also micro engineers around a bit to help reduce bump it dont solve it entirley but it helps.

AIR : they are not a problem
LAND / SEA if you put the assisting engies on one side of the factory so they don't block the exit of the unit, it's not so painfull imho. You can still have 150-200 eng on one side on a fac (usually I do this to build t3 subs)with no eng blocking the exit. Isn't it enough ?

The bigger issue to me is when you need to do something else than assist the factory, then the hives/stations are really much much better.

I see no real problem with changing the buildrates, but i think your view on engies is a bit wrong. I spam ASF like hell in many many games, and I honnestly build hives/stations in like 5-10% of my games, and only late when I know it's gonna take HOURS to finish the game.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 22 Oct 2011, 19:07

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-22T10:47:26+02:00

T1 engineer - 10.4 mass/buildrate
T2 engineer - 16 mass/buldrate
T3 engineer - 32.7 mass/buldrate

as you can see they cost 3x more for T3 enginers and the bigget problem is while your building T3 engineers your not buiding harbs. Even if T3 engineers had the same mass/buildrate of T1 engineers people would not use them. Purley for the reason that when your building T3 engineers you not getting other T3.

If you do x3 buildpower of T3 fac then it will cost less to make another T3 fac than the hives required to assist it. This wil help greatly in the no hive/drone peoblem for aeon/sera as at the moment all you see them used for is spamming ASF or T3 land lategame. you can also micro engineers around a bit to help reduce bump it dont solve it entirley but it helps.

also you dont see double ras upgrade often and only on late in the game on big maps but you see T3 land most games.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 22 Oct 2011, 10:47

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-22T09:54:28+02:00

Hum stupid because ? because they cost more for less buildrate (in ratio to their cost) ? It's not stupid, it's a choice. Less units, less bumps when the units come out of the factory. BTW this is really a problem for land factory only, and still if you know how to use your engineers properly, it's not a big issue.

Changing the buildrate of the factories, even though it' may or may not be a good idea, won't solve the lack for stations/hives for the sera and aeon.

Talking about that, those are precisely the only 2 where the commander has DOUBLE RAS upgrade. coincidence ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 22 Oct 2011, 09:54

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-22T03:06:48+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Isn't it part of the "Strat" to go either for mass t1 eng support or hives/stations or t2/t3 engies ?
You know that if you go for t1 engies it can slow down your land fac, but cost wise they are most efficient...
You knoiw that if you go hives/stations, it kills ur eco but late game they are better...

Choices , choices no ?

you also know that using t2/t3 engineers to assist facs is just stupid and two of the factions dont have hives/drones. Using hives/drones also cost 3x more mass than T1 engineers making them only usefull on bigger maps. At the moment there is no logic in the decision to go facs or engineers. If you dont assist your facs you will lose. Simple as that.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 22 Oct 2011, 03:06

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-22T03:00:33+02:00

Isn't it part of the "Strat" to go either for mass t1 eng support or hives/stations or t2/t3 engies ?
You know that if you go for t1 engies it can slow down your land fac, but cost wise they are most efficient...
You knoiw that if you go hives/stations, it kills ur eco but late game they are better...

Choices , choices no ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 22 Oct 2011, 03:00

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T23:57:13+02:00

I agree with you that giving the factories more build capacity is a good thing. However, it is wrong for you to say those engineers serve no purpose. This kind of approach to the game scares me, because it can lead to the supcom 2 dumbing down effect. As long as Funkoff understands, it is all good.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 21 Oct 2011, 23:57

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T23:21:55+02:00

I agree that the game should not turn into supcom 2. The thing is thoughse 50 engineers assisting your T3 land fac do not need to be there. Why not reduce number to 20 instead for slight increase in fac cost? its just that these engineers serve no purpose and just lag game and make it into bumpfest for fac units or anything moving near the fac.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 21 Oct 2011, 23:21

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T22:40:59+02:00

TA4Life wrote:
Don't make the game look like supcom 2. Leaving building capacity with the engies gives supcom FA much more freedom and gives the game more depth. Of course there is the added micro cost, but it is actually minimal if you learn what to do, one time.

Yes, but ideally it should be a strategic choice to use faster, more vulnerable engineers or slower but more sturdy factories. At present, engineers are SO MUCH better than factories at building that you MUST assist with engineers or you cannot hope to win.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 21 Oct 2011, 22:40

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T22:33:33+02:00

looks like my last post didn't make it.

People need to play more setons so that they would know how to micro their engies.(check out how people assist their naval factories) (engie assist engie assisting fac, with a fac attack move mixed in)

These are features:
advantages of asssisting t1 fac
cheaper (but only just)
engineers can run away
engineers can do other things
disadvantages
they die in single bommbing run
they have less hp than facs
they feed enemy units veterancy

Having a base composed of well armored and weak components, allows for more creative methods of attack.

Don't make the game look like supcom 2. Leaving building capacity with the engies gives supcom FA much more freedom and gives the game more depth. Of course there is the added micro cost, but it is actually minimal if you learn what to do, one time.

PS. don't play 81x81 map and expect it to work. The game should not be sacrificed in order to make 81x81 games playable.

Statistics: Posted by TA4Life — 21 Oct 2011, 22:33

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T22:25:33+02:00

I think most of the problems surrounding tech 1 engineer spam would be solved by buffs to tech 2 and tech 3 engineer build rates. Messing with the factories is unnecessary.... and many people dislike it because it's harder to keep factories running with infinite ques.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 21 Oct 2011, 22:25

Re: Increase fac buildpower 2x for T2 and 3x for T3

2011-10-21T22:16:00+02:00

yes its fun t watch units bumb, revense, bumb, reverse. over and over again they take the same path as before too...

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 21 Oct 2011, 22:16