Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-29T21:50:52+02:00

I dont think bombers need a nerf either.

I agree though, in making the air factory to build FLYING engineers like in TA, the nearer the game is to TA the happier I am.

Even if it means the cost of the flying engineer more costly than the land one.

I am also of the idea that air in general has to much HP cept the bomber.

Check this post:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=329

Statistics: Posted by TAG_ROCK — 29 Oct 2011, 21:50

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T17:16:33+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
It has already been established that bombers do not need a nerf.

I disagree with your premise.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 27 Oct 2011, 17:16

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T14:17:53+02:00

to nerf air first builds how about slight increase in t1 bommber E cost? so you need 3 pgens instead of two. As said in other topics removal of bomber radar would help massivley. An early bommber can kill all your expantion engineers and when it comes under aa fire it flys off. It can be very hard to counter. Even if it gets shot down its probaly killed 3 of your enigneers anyway and payed itself back.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 27 Oct 2011, 14:17

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T14:10:13+02:00

Do not like D:
Since there are "paradice" and "four corners" in ranked map pool, cybran and uef may not need land factories at all.
And it is just not good, this change will be too big
Airfac producing ingeners slower then landfacs.
may be there is a problem that you don't like and want fix it, but please find other way

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 27 Oct 2011, 14:10

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T13:57:24+02:00

This is done in experimental wars by the way.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 27 Oct 2011, 13:57

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T13:55:59+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
second, it makes sense because engineers are land units.

It's kinda true, but I take TA as a reference. all type of factories had their own engineering units.

The shipyard could make ships that could build, same for the hovercraft factory, the air fac could make engineering planes...

Maybe add some new engineering unit ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 27 Oct 2011, 13:55

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-27T13:50:26+02:00

It has already been established that bombers do not need a nerf.

It has also already been established that bomber first is only "bad and wrong and OP and gamebreaking and other inflated negative adjectives" when the disparity of skill level between the two opponents is sufficiently high. In other words, that bomber first is not an issue.

This change, while "simple" on the surface and seemingly innocuous, has many and far reaching consequences, a few of which being:

- Air first is even less viable than it already is. That reduces strategic diversity for no apparent reason other than to slow the defeat of a noob by a pro for a few more minutes, which is an absurd way to balance the game.

- Naval and air heavy maps are now dramatically changed, as you need even more land facs than before to spam engineers for increased build power, resulting in a net nerf to both naval and air where they were previously balanced just fine. For example, when you now build a naval factory, you can no longer build engineers to assist it, meaning increased build and travel time while your now-needed land facs produce their engineers and move them to the target factory.

- Removal of strategic options to fix a problem that doesn't need fixing. There is no reason to remove T1 engineers other than several people complain about air first, and since support could not be rallied to nerf bombers, this is a roundabout attempt at accomplishing the same goal.

Aside from attempting to nerf air first builds, what is your reasoning for this change? If there is no other valid reason, then I believe the topic has already been sufficiently covered in previous threads.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 27 Oct 2011, 13:50

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T21:42:42+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Are you sure that's possible ? MY guess is that the buildrate if kinda fixed for one structure, unless the tech level evolves ofc

It is but if you decrease the build power by 10% to have engineers at T1 being built 10% slower, you can also decrease the build power cost of the other units by 10% to compensate for that. (The build power cost compared to the mass cost is what determines how much mass per second is used on constructing the unit or building)

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Oct 2011, 21:42

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T20:04:04+02:00

Are you sure that's possible ? MY guess is that the buildrate if kinda fixed for one structure, unless the tech level evolves ofc

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 26 Oct 2011, 20:04

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T17:51:11+02:00

i dont like the idea, i suggest you other solution for first bombers, make air factories and navy factories make enginers slower than land factories.

Statistics: Posted by Isen — 26 Oct 2011, 17:51

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T11:44:03+02:00

I like the idea. The amount of maps this effects is so negligible.

This also buffs land combat because this change would actually force you to go for t2 land/T3 land. It should delay Air in general a bit without actually nerfing air which is great.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 26 Oct 2011, 11:44

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T02:20:04+02:00

echo echooo oooo oo oo

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 26 Oct 2011, 02:20

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-26T11:07:33+02:00

people dont use air factories to spam T1 engineers anyway as they stall as then engineer moves off the factory. It wont alter the game that much exept cancel out the super early bommber rush. If you only did it for T1 air facs it would probaly be better as you said.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 25 Oct 2011, 22:28

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-25T22:21:37+02:00

Great idea Funk. But.... would you enable tech 2 facts to make engies? If you went t3 air and needed t3 power, as you do, you need a t3 engie to do it.... or up grade acu.

While I like the idea of secretly nerfing air first, I dont think such a radical game mechanic will be allowed to be altered. I also think that would make the game less "fun".

Statistics: Posted by ToejamS — 25 Oct 2011, 22:21

Re: Only land factories can build engineers

2011-10-25T21:47:40+02:00

Well, before we decide this, we need something on the maps where land factories can't be built. Think of the naval survival maps and maps like sludge (do you want a UEF T1 land factory there, whether T1 air rush is OP or not)?

Why has air rush actually become a viable tactic now? I believe it wasn't the case in the original game? Maybe there's a solution to the cause that doesn't require removing engineers from the Naval and Air branch.

Additionally, I'm also against it as long as the factories don't have a proper build power later on in the game (With this I'm hinting to the naval factories in particular). On larger maps, it makes no sense having to drag engineers along to a naval factory to assist. Just build them with the factory. If you have to bring them from your base it's just going to waste your time. It's not efficient.

How about this: remove T1 engineers from the T1 air factory alone. Or only the T1 air and naval factory. It removes the T1 air rush as planned but won't cut back on what I think is an elementary aspect of the game.

Also, I think that the problem can be solved by looking at what made it so viable and then see what can be done in terms of cost to take that reason away.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 25 Oct 2011, 21:47