Forged Alliance Forever

Re: GC and his claws

2011-11-06T22:39:54+02:00

Yes I think some sort of 'cost' or damage based veterancy is needed. I don't know how to do that myself, but obviously it's been done in the Total Vet mod. I never wanted to mess with the Total Vet mod because it made so many other changes. I think there's another mod in the GPG moho mod forum that made some simpler changes to the Vet system, but I can't remember the name.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 22:39

Re: GC and his claws

2011-11-06T22:35:57+02:00

Make veterancy damage done not kills. When a unit does 1.5x its health in damage it gets 1* vet. You could add multipliers for buildings so when a battleship kills a T3 naval fac it dont get 5* instantly. say facs are worth 0.7* per hp than other land units

Another way is mass killed. lets say a unit cost 1000 mass and had 10000 health. When it does 10hp damage to it it gets a veterancy point. lets say it needs 100 veterancy points to level up.

This is more like SC2 veterancy and I like that system better. A GCs biggest fear will be T1 arty and mobile shields.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 06 Nov 2011, 22:35

Re: GC and his claws

2011-11-06T22:26:55+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
Mr Pinguin wrote:
As mentioned by Funk and Gowerly, the GC can be beaten by swarming it with the right T3 units and/or moving behind it. The 3603 GC is equal in cost to 76 Obsidians, and in my repeated testing 76 obsidians can almost always beat the GC. If they can get behind the GC then they're basically guaranteed to win.

with T4 balance. People can rapid build a GC long before their enemy can build 76 Obsidians.

One of the biggest problems is that. It takes 6x longer to get 21 percys than a GC

Yes. This is an eternal problem with T4 balance in SupCom FA. I've thought about it a fair amount, but I've never settled on an ideal solution. The simple fact is that we can't make T3 units too easy to spam because they're (arguably) the peak on the power curve. Moreover, we can't make T4 too slow to build because that can just get tedious and then no one would build them. I think most people agree that the decreased build times in FA (relative to SupCom1) were a good change.

I actually think that the solution may depend on a combination of changes, but the most important would be a change to veterancy so you could actually try to fight a Megalith with swarms of T1. The iconic images from the SupCom1 trailer make no sense in SupCom FA because low tier swarms just give veterancy and make T4s even stronger. If this were 'fixed' then it would be possible to at least wear T4s down and stall them with big armies. Of course, I don't want T4s to lose to T1 because then there'd be no point in building them...

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 22:26

Re: GC and his claws

2011-11-06T10:42:04+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
As mentioned by Funk and Gowerly, the GC can be beaten by swarming it with the right T3 units and/or moving behind it. The 3603 GC is equal in cost to 76 Obsidians, and in my repeated testing 76 obsidians can almost always beat the GC. If they can get behind the GC then they're basically guaranteed to win.

with T4 balance. People can rapid build a GC long before their enemy can build 76 Obsidians.

One of the biggest problems is that. It takes 6x longer to get 21 percys than a GC

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 06 Nov 2011, 10:42

Re: GC and his claws

2011-11-06T02:49:40+02:00

The premise of this thread is flawed.

The GC can definitely be beaten by T3 land (and even T2 and T1 land, although that's messier because of the OP'd nature of Supcom's veterancy vs swarms of low tier units).

The GC's laser is relatively weak. Its best attack is its claws since they insta-kill units regardless of their HP. That makes expensive super units like Percivals the worst unit to use against GCs.

As mentioned by Funk and Gowerly, the GC can be beaten by swarming it with the right T3 units and/or moving behind it. The 3603 GC is equal in cost to 76 Obsidians, and in my repeated testing 76 obsidians can almost always beat the GC. If they can get behind the GC then they're basically guaranteed to win.

Likewise, Loyalists pwn GCs. UEF Titans can win for cost, but it's a closer match. Sniper bots are questionable imo (especially the Sprite Strikers), but that's because Sprite Strikers are underpowered and practically useless.. so... Othuums, however, can manage to beat a GC. I assume Ilshavohs can as well, though I don't think I've ever tested it.

And finally, even if GCs were unbeatable vs land units, is that really so terrible? Something has to be the best, and the GC is a pure anti-land unit so it makes sense that it should be in the running. It has no torps or anti naval. It has no anti-air, it's not stealth like the Monkeylord, and it lacks the suicide weapon and raw DPS of the Ythotha.

In practical terms: Even if you just barely manage to kill a GC (and you can't manage to build some gunships to wear it down from the air or some torpedoes to weaken it in the sea), the result is a giant pile of mass at your doorstep.

The only real problem with this balance is the build times, but that's a universal problem with T4 balance. People can rapid build a GC long before their enemy can build 76 Obsidians.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 02:49

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-28T20:54:14+02:00

Well, I'm just going to stay there if I know I won't be attacked. It won't make me any progress but I'm keeping my enemy at bay with a GC at their front door. I'm really not going to move forwards into a trap if I know it's a trap. Additionally, by outranging and letting my enemy move backwards a bit, I can actually get the shields and generators down.

When that happens, it's over.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 28 Oct 2011, 20:54

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-28T18:52:21+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Artillery have a lower range than the GC (outranged by 10). It may be so that you can stash them all under the shield generators but are you going to hit anything before the GC will hit you (or the shields)? Also: you can't put them all under 5 shields. I'm going to target the weakest spot first.

Using T1 arty sounds nice but without shields they are completely useless. They get thrashed instantly (like anything else). So what are you going to do? Use the ACU alone to OC? The Aeon unit has a range of 35, which is the best possibility you have.
This means that with all units, you are forced to the edge of the shields, if not worse.

In all cases you are outranged. If I can see what I'm facing (50 arty, 5 T2 shields, let's add a T3 just for the fun of it and an upgraded OC ACU), I'm going to use a slow and steady approach. Easily done.

That's why the only option is an approach by more powerful units. You can actually charge with them if you have some.

Yes the GC does outrange acu and T1 arty. So you move back, it HAS to move forwards then you
Move forwards and you are in range. It can't move back as it has to turn around. It may take an extra three seconds to do this but it is not that
Much of a problem.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 28 Oct 2011, 18:52

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-27T21:34:16+02:00

Artillery have a lower range than the GC (outranged by 10). It may be so that you can stash them all under the shield generators but are you going to hit anything before the GC will hit you (or the shields)? Also: you can't put them all under 5 shields. I'm going to target the weakest spot first.

Using T1 arty sounds nice but without shields they are completely useless. They get thrashed instantly (like anything else). So what are you going to do? Use the ACU alone to OC? The Aeon unit has a range of 35, which is the best possibility you have.
This means that with all units, you are forced to the edge of the shields, if not worse.

In all cases you are outranged. If I can see what I'm facing (50 arty, 5 T2 shields, let's add a T3 just for the fun of it and an upgraded OC ACU), I'm going to use a slow and steady approach. Easily done.

That's why the only option is an approach by more powerful units. You can actually charge with them if you have some.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 27 Oct 2011, 21:34

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T22:05:11+02:00

The GC has very little dps on its lazer and shields hold for a while. 5 T2 shields at 12k hp each is 60k hp thats 24 seconds you got to kill it. Thats without counting the 40k hp on acu(sheild+normal hp) with 50 t1 arty doung 5k dps and acu doing 3.6k dps that very easy. The gc will genraly sit there and kill sheilds then acu. As it sits there arty owns it hard. If it charges the positon then it will either
- stop as ACU and keep firing allowing it to get hit by arty
-run past acu and then have to turn around again as ACU OCs it in the back 2x and the arty smashes it even more.

Also remember arty is cheap. 1.8k mass for 5k dps and thats 50 t1 arty. You are right at when sheilds are broken its gonna be game lost as it gets 2* vet and mostly healed.

The GC is the best anti experemetal experemental and also the best vs T3 land. Its hard to counter when your attacking and the best counter, as you said is probaly percys.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 26 Oct 2011, 22:05

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T21:40:01+02:00

noobymcnoobcake wrote:
ACU is a very powerfull weapon vs experementals.

And a very fragile one. If you can get range+double shield on the Aeon ACU, you stand a chance, but you need OC all of the time and proper radar coverage (although those shouldn't be the biggest problem).
Additionally, your ACU is a target of interest, even more so than the GC you're targeting. If the GC dies, the rest of the enemy's army still stands. If your ACU dies, you've lost the game, and you've got to OC it 8 times to get 96K HP. Also, you need to have the ACU in the area. It is unique and therefore it's weakness lies in the problem that you can't have it everywhere at the same time. If I see that my GC is going to die to an ACU and his army, I'm going to use whatever I have to do something else and just walk the GC on some shields if I can.

[/quote]If you got gun, buildpower or intel if aeon, sheild upgrade and 3 T2 shields (stationary) and 4 E storage you will kill monkey with all hp left. That cost about 4500 mass.[/quote]
As I said, what about the GC? And what about the Cybran ACU vs a GC? Or the UEF one? Also, you're stationary. I'm going to use my GC to attack another place. The ACU isn't there so that's easier.

If your facing GC then just get 5 T2 shields (stationarty) and the rest the same. That cost 5500 mass. Not bad counter to a 21k mass and 28k mass unit is it? if the gc trys to out range acu then acu just moves back a bit and then forwards again. GC cant walk backwards so it is then about 3 seconds later in the acus range. overcharge had 3.6k damage a second. Thats more than GC hads.
As I said, you're stationary. You can't move further than the safety of the shields. I can send my GC anywhere I want. That's a choice I make before I attack. You have to respond.
50 T1 arty also helps. Thats 5k dps for aeon and cost only 1.8k mass. Make sure there kept behind shields though.

I don't know how effective any T1 army of artillery is against any of the assault exps. I believe it is useless. As soon as the shields break (and they will), you're feeding experience (vet2 for the Ythota and the ML, that is 20100 resp 13500 HP) if you can get all artillery, and they die soon.

I reckon the T1 artillery could do something against the Megalith, because the lith's only weapon is a huge sniper gun with low RoF.

Anyway, I reckon the mass would be better spent on PDs (which you can easily get with T3 engineering suites, because in your theory, your ACU is near with shield generators - useless in Sera/Cybran situations anyway)

At least i know a few ways to kill GC cost effectivley with land now thanks to this topic and sugestions.

I reckon the fastest, easiest, cheapest and least risky way is still using percivals/Sniper bots and other experimentals.

Also, remember that it won't always happen that you're in the defence when you meet a GC. It can be somewhere on the field or on the offence. In those cases, you have no ACU and no stationary shield generators. My best thought is using a GC/Ythota/ML with sniper bots/loyalists in that case, or Percivals with the UEF.

The bottom line is that the T3 units get killed by the tractor beam, which is a much more effective weapon than the laser. Best to use as many tough units as soon as possible because the laser is more effective for T1/T2 units.

Also, I've read about the objection of 2 MLs against one GC. I do think it is a viable strategy IF YOU ACTUALLY HAVE 2 SPIDERBOTS. IE in the case of attacking/meeting in the field. If you still have to spend the mass, find another method in terms of cost and time. Because if you send 2 MLs on the GC, it's a DPS of 8K against 2.5K with 90K HP vs 100K HP.

Granted, the GC's range is larger but that won't help him for long. Then, the GC will be killed in 12.5 seconds, in which it can only do about 31K damage against a ML. So the question is: can the GC do more than 14K damage against one of the MLs to actually take one down before it is killed? (And then when the MLs are done, can they do enough damage to get themselves paid off in mass - I believe they can because one is still at 100% health)

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Oct 2011, 21:40

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T20:08:01+02:00

Wow you're actually right, I never actually took the time to check the cost of the GC. It is indeed damn powerfull for its cost. I'm so glad I realized this now , thx

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 26 Oct 2011, 20:08

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T19:50:36+02:00

This post is just silly

-_V_- wrote:
- UEF : one fat boy ("microed"), a couple of overlapping t2 shields, some t3 pd
- CYBRAN : i think 2 spiders do the trick, right ? (no sure about that) You can even send one of the spider in the back of the GC and still shooting at it so...
- SERA : one YO and a couple of t2 shields, or what i said above, yo + t1 arties in support

GC=27.5k

UEF:
Fatboy=28k
2 T2 Shields=1.2k
3 T3 PD=5.4k

You just spent 34.6k and the only way to kill the GC is if you can kite it across half of the map back to your PD. Not a good counter. Use Percivals.

Cybran:
2 Monkeylords=42k

Do I need to even say anything about this?

Seraphim:
Ythotha=25k
4 T3 mobile shields=2.56k

This is the only counter of the three you mentioned that actually makes sense. I cant see how the Ythotha would lose this. So this is by far the strongest Assault Experimental combination for 27.56k. Of course you have to upgrade a land factory to get the mobile shields where as you might have gone T3 air with Aeon.

Statistics: Posted by Treble — 26 Oct 2011, 19:50

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T20:32:05+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
1) I never want to put my ACU on the line against any experimental, only when it's all I have (then I'm dead anyway). So using the ACU as support for an army or an army as support for the ACU is a really bad idea.

2) Don't mention fatboy vs Ythota/GC/ML. The Fatboy's role is that of support unit, not of combat unit, as you can see by your own results. The fatboy will do softening up and the percivals (which you will surely have if you have a fatboy) can go in for the kill.

3) I've done my own sort of testing last weekend and found out that it really depends on the claw usage. When I send 21 Percies at the GC, about 12 or so survive. When I send 12, the amount of HP that remained on the GC ranged from 38K to 60K. This is of course completely dependent on how much the claws are used.

However, I have never seen 21 Percies lose against a GC. The only time I managed to kill all percies was when I was smart enough to use the range and kill as many before the opponent knew was was going on (then again, you can beat 100 percies that way).

ACU is a very powerfull weapon vs experementals. If you got gun, buildpower or intel if aeon, sheild upgrade and 3 T2 shields (stationary) and 4 E storage you will kill monkey with all hp left. That cost about 4500 mass. If your facing GC then just get 5 T2 shields (stationarty) and the rest the same. That cost 5500 mass. Not bad counter to a 21k mass and 28k mass unit is it? if the gc trys to out range acu then acu just moves back a bit and then forwards again. GC cant walk backwards so it is then about 3 seconds later in the acus range. overcharge had 3.6k damage a second. Thats more than GC hads.

50 T1 arty also helps. Thats 5k dps for aeon and cost only 1.8k mass. Make sure there kept behind shields though.

At least i know a few ways to kill GC cost effectivley with land now thanks to this topic and sugestions.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 26 Oct 2011, 19:30

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T16:02:21+02:00

1) I never want to put my ACU on the line against any experimental, only when it's all I have (then I'm dead anyway). So using the ACU as support for an army or an army as support for the ACU is a really bad idea.

2) Don't mention fatboy vs Ythota/GC/ML. The Fatboy's role is that of support unit, not of combat unit, as you can see by your own results. The fatboy will do softening up and the percivals (which you will surely have if you have a fatboy) can go in for the kill.

3) I've done my own sort of testing last weekend and found out that it really depends on the claw usage. When I send 21 Percies at the GC, about 12 or so survive. When I send 12, the amount of HP that remained on the GC ranged from 38K to 60K. This is of course completely dependent on how much the claws are used.

However, I have never seen 21 Percies lose against a GC. The only time I managed to kill all percies was when I was smart enough to use the range and kill as many before the opponent knew was was going on (then again, you can beat 100 percies that way).

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 26 Oct 2011, 16:02

Re: GC and his claws

2011-10-26T15:56:31+02:00

So in the end, it's all good right ?

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 26 Oct 2011, 15:56