Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-19T21:21:32+02:00

Icy wrote:
Everybody seems to not realize that carriers are unbelievably good at refueling and repairing huge amounts of t3 air. Just leave a carrier idle near your giant air patrol and all the planes will be as good as new after every fight. The aa and building capabilities are secondary to carriers being by far the best air staging platform in the game. Try using them as carriers instead of naval air facs

This is 100% true. However at the moment carriers do not fill there stereotypical role - A platform to launch devistating air attacks against enemy forces. They are great air staging platforms, the best in the game. But they should be able to refuel everything except transports. No reason for them not to be able to.I think the game would benefit to having all fuel time reduced to 5 mins. This way ASF swarms would be higher mantinence and you would need a little more infrastructure to support an ASF spam. This would also increase the role of carriers and air staging on large maps making you need small bases or cariers to refuel aircraft to get them across the map and attack.

Carriers should also be able to build engineers. They are support role and with the new shipwrecks having engineers on the water is vital.

Also I cannot see anyone coming up with a reasonable argument against building on the move. IF it is possible to do it should be done.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 19 May 2012, 21:21

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-19T20:38:26+02:00

Everybody seems to not realize that carriers are unbelievably good at refueling and repairing huge amounts of t3 air. Just leave a carrier idle near your giant air patrol and all the planes will be as good as new after every fight. The aa and building capabilities are secondary to carriers being by far the best air staging platform in the game. Try using them as carriers instead of naval air facs

Statistics: Posted by Icy — 19 May 2012, 20:38

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-18T12:55:46+02:00

Give Carriers T3 AA with splash damage.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 18 May 2012, 12:55

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-18T10:22:15+02:00

Give carriers a small regeneration field maybe? One that only affects aircraft? Will mean that keeping the carrier close to the fight will be beneficial and will increase the effectiveness of naval + air fights.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 18 May 2012, 10:22

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-18T09:51:58+02:00

carriers are fine give them a bit more aa damage. they are really nice against air.
here i used some on seton and i cant see that they are ineffektive since they can bring attack planes to the enemy and protecting them from asf.
http://www.file-upload.net/download-436 ... eplay.html
despite the fact i didnt use them here really effektive you can see how easy it is to use them. just imagine some t2 corsar bombers inside. i use this for example agaisnt uef to push the damage while opening the battle to have a chance to switch off the shields.

a very nice tactic which i have never seen is to sent 1 t3 engi and some t1 engis with the carrier like in this replay. you could built t1 shipyards and get all the mass from sunken ships there. you can get even as cybran effektive anti air with sam and make barrier with harms or t2 torpedo launchers.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 18 May 2012, 09:51

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-05-18T09:19:27+02:00

I got an idea to make them build on the move
When the carrier is not moving it builds exactly the same way as now. But when it is moving it destroys the thing it id building every second and spawns it in the carriers new location with the same HP as before. To make this not look sp funny how about making the planes invisible when they build?

Also it would be good if carriers could refuel all aircraft (it still dont need to be able to build bombers, gunships ect) and build enginers to repair/reclaim the fleet especily with the new shipwrecks.

How about letting them build t2 hovertanks? Or hover flack for aeon and sera? And absolvers for aeon? Hover Mobile shields?

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 18 May 2012, 09:19

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T13:24:28+02:00

TnukSmasher3000 wrote:
I'm not convinced that the carriers are as useless in all games as many suppose.

Most definitely. They are also quite useful in Phantom games, for exactly the same reason: you can very quickly start producing air without needing to invest in engineers.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 25 Apr 2012, 13:24

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T05:58:00+02:00

I'm not convinced that the carriers are as useless in all games as many suppose. They regularly get used on setons games by navy players who've won their naval side and have or are destroying their opponents base and front spot base, but are on a team that who lack the air superiority to finish off the remaining opponents. By that point in the game, with a t3 naval factory, carriers can be spammed out by seraphim and aeon players who don't have engie stations to spam prolific amounts of air. (Or UEF/Cybran players who don't already have stations up and running). The carriers are pretty much the only way of catching up in air late game as the resource problem isn't the mass/energy cost of the carriers, but with actual build power that can quickly be turned to spamming air from producing navy. (It takes a long time to move and manouver t1 engineers from naval factories onto land to build air, whereas a carrier can be built about every 10-15 seconds.)

Statistics: Posted by TnukSmasher3000 — 25 Apr 2012, 05:58

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T03:25:00+02:00

Edit: Another idea I was toying with was simply making air units, upon exiting a carrier, have a shield for 1000 health or so.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 25 Apr 2012, 03:25

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T03:23:47+02:00

Jace wrote:
i dont understand why it shouldnt be possible to build an move at the same time?
anyway, isnt it possible to code around that by stealing the supcom2 mechanic?

Engline limitation... supcom 2 has an improved engine, one that fixes this limitation, among others.

-you just have to pre-pay the unit and it will then spawn instantly. istead of slowly building it? just spawning a unit shouldnt be a big problem i think. and just taking away a set amount of mass and energy either.

Then you can't use the build menu to make units... using the build menu to issue build commands to a unit makes that unit build the thing you told it to build the normal way.

-then set this spawn-building to a cooldown timer of a few seconds, so nobody can just spawn a army out of nowhere if he has the mass`?????????

Re above

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 25 Apr 2012, 03:23

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T01:08:36+02:00

i dont understand why it shouldnt be possible to build an move at the same time?
anyway, isnt it possible to code around that by stealing the supcom2 mechanic?

-you just have to pre-pay the unit and it will then spawn instantly. istead of slowly building it? just spawning a unit shouldnt be a big problem i think. and just taking away a set amount of mass and energy either.

-then set this spawn-building to a cooldown timer of a few seconds, so nobody can just spawn a army out of nowhere if he has the mass`?????????

Statistics: Posted by Jace — 25 Apr 2012, 01:08

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2012-04-25T00:44:26+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Okay, it has been my observation that nobody really uses carriers like you would expect... you know, as a mobile staging facility for aircraft, from which aircraft attack and return to refuel/repair/rearm/etc. So I'm suggesting we change that.

Basically, I'm going to make carriers able to auto-build a small airforce of 20 interceptors and 20 torpedo bombers. These units will be built while the carrier is able to move and shoot and will cost normal mass/energy costs of these units. Then, when you order the carrier to attack something, either sea or air, it will automatically send out the units to destroy the thing you clicked. When the air units are destroyed, they will automatically be replaced (costing normal mass/energy). When the target is destroyed, the units will return to the carrier, be repaired/refuled and ready for another target.

Thoughts?

This is exactly how Carriers should have been from the start. People had proposed this exact idea back in T.A too, where carriers couldn't build and move also. Giving them super build power doesnt seem right, it was like in T.A, they made them T3 powe gens with T3 radar to make them usefull, but u ended up with lods of them just getting spammed in long games and just sitting home waters. Thats not what carriers are for.
When they realised they had an engine limitation, Im surprised they didnt just cut them like the Amphibious transports they proposed before release, but i guess they wanted to keep the whole WW2 combined arms navy thing intact.
I hope there is eventually are coding workaround.

Statistics: Posted by Crayfish — 25 Apr 2012, 00:44

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2011-11-20T20:33:33+02:00

All facs

T3 fac to 240 from 60 it cost 13.1 mass/buildrate from 69.8
T2 fac 80 from 40 it cost 10 mass/buildrate from 26
T1 fac 20 from 20 it cost 12 mass/buildrate from 12

T1 engineer 5 from 5 it cost 10.4 mass/buildrate from 10.4
T2 engineer 15 from 10 it cost 10.6 mass/buildrate from 16
T3 engineer 45 from 15 it cost 10.9 mass/buildrate from 32.7

This means all factoies and engineers have around the same mass cost/buildrate ratio. you could up T3 fac costs to compensate for this. At the moment it takes 1 min 20 secs to get a heavy bot unnasisted at a drain of 15 mass/sec.

with 240 buildpower it will take only 20 seconds to get it at a mass cost of 64/sec around (2 T3 mex + storage)

A T2 fac will make a tank in 11 sec at a cost of cost 18 mass/sec (2 T2 mex + storage)

This will make experementals easier to take down too. All experementals ar killed cost effectivley by percys (and GC just) but those 21 percys take six times as long to build than the GC.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 20 Nov 2011, 20:33

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2011-11-20T17:47:14+02:00

Giving carriers a higher build power will be an indirect nerf to the Atlantis (and CZAR but the effectiveness of that experimental is also being discussed). Those two would also need a higher build power then, which I think will make them extremely powerful.

I'd say it is possible but it might have to come with an increased cost, especially if other changes are going to be made to improve them too (I believe FunkOff had some naval ideas).

As for the limited blueprints, I'd say they're fine. They can construct ASFs which provide the air superiority you might suddenly need on a large map. For Aeon you also get Restorers and T3 Torpedo bombers - The last one of course VERY VERY useful in Naval combat.

But I also wonder for what you'd immediately need a lot of air units for (also on those large maps). I believe that with time progressing, it is obvious you'll need proper defences for an enemy attack.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 20 Nov 2011, 17:47

Re: Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

2011-11-20T16:55:54+02:00

while building while moving would be cool, but very hard to implement, why not give them the possibility to really build air fast!

Think about it: you play on a huge map, you focused on navy. you got a t3 navy factory.

Now you suddenly need air superiority.

What will you do?

Right now: Build and tech up an air fac on land and support with over 9000 t1 engineers. Why?

1. carriers have limited building blueprints
2. carriers only build while standing, and then with a build rate of 150. An t3 air fac has only 60, but it will be supported by at least 20 t1 engineers which is then 160 AND you can build all air units.

the carrier only has a minor higher mass cost than the t3 air fac.

So change it to the scenario, where you would consider building a carrier instead of teching an air fac.

Increase build power to 200, which will compensate for no assisting engis, and no building while moving.
Also increase anti air damage slightly. Now its not very valuable

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 20 Nov 2011, 16:55