Forged Alliance Forever

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-12T00:53:17+02:00

Well since Seraphim's T2 PD cost a little over 500 mass they only needs 3 (T2) or 10 (T1) kills to makeup for their cost. With Seraphim that's pretty good since the beams are so accurate.

I see what you mean by it being static but still that isn't too bad, the main problem I see is the players who build PD and just sit there and watch it shoot things....not build units....or even advance with ACU to take more ground....

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 12 Dec 2011, 00:53

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T20:46:24+02:00

Armmagedon wrote:
uberge3k wrote:PDs are already a bit too cheap IMO. I really don't want to see "firebase wars" become the de facto standard...

+100000000

pds was buffed on 3603, I hate pds turtlers shits, the beam pds cant be dodged like the others and have a mega dps, thats hateful, i hate tutling festivals zomg

berm pd's can be doged easy

Statistics: Posted by Reddev32 — 11 Dec 2011, 20:46

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T20:42:35+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
PDs are already a bit too cheap IMO. I really don't want to see "firebase wars" become the de facto standard...

+100000000

pds was buffed on 3603, I hate pds turtlers shits, the beam pds cant be dodged like the others and have a mega dps, thats hateful, i hate tutling festivals zomg

Statistics: Posted by Armmagedon — 11 Dec 2011, 20:42

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T15:23:27+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
Until then could you lessen the cost of Seraphim and Cybran PDs to account for the free intel then?

PDs are already a bit too cheap IMO. I really don't want to see "firebase wars" become the de facto standard...

Gunseng wrote:
I see PD creep all the time in games, mainly to hold or take ground or just make an opening to get units through. You have to remember this game isn't just about how efficiently you use mass but also exploiting your opponents mistakes. The games I won was because I was exploiting my opponents mistake of paying too much attention to their allies. Pesky allies always getting in the way of winning

The fact is that static defenses will *always* be less effective than the same mass put into units. This is critical to the balance of the game, as the second that static defenses become more efficient than units (or even close to their effectiveness), we have a very large problem as games will devolve into "he who moves first, loses" turtlefests.

If you exploited their inattention by using a PD creep, you could have exploited it even better by using other units.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 11 Dec 2011, 15:23

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T15:06:00+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
I was exploiting my opponents mistake of paying too much attention to their allies. Pesky allies always getting in the way of winning

that why they call them allies they are mean to be a pain LMAO

Statistics: Posted by Reddev32 — 11 Dec 2011, 15:06

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T14:58:19+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
By the way, feel free to look at the code and the fix we've implemented, maybe you will find a way to stop the effect from being seen in the fog :

https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/forged-a ... onBeam.lua

I'll take a look and see what I can find.

Until then could you lessen the cost of Seraphim and Cybran PDs to account for the free intel then?

I see PD creep all the time in games, mainly to hold or take ground or just make an opening to get units through. You have to remember this game isn't just about how efficiently you use mass but also exploiting your opponents mistakes. The games I won was because I was exploiting my opponents mistake of paying too much attention to their allies. Pesky allies always getting in the way of winning

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 11 Dec 2011, 14:58

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T14:32:04+02:00

By the way, feel free to look at the code and the fix we've implemented, maybe you will find a way to stop the effect from being seen in the fog :

https://bitbucket.org/thepilot/forged-a ... onBeam.lua

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Dec 2011, 14:32

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T14:28:15+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
I won the two games because of two things, they were distracted and they didn't scout. Even though they knew I was Seraphim and was PD creeping, the only thing they didn't know is that I built a Stealth Field Generator not a Shield Generator which lead them to believe I wasn't creeping in range yet.

If they are playing by making wild guesses and inferences about what your enemy is doing, rather than sending a single air unit to confirm (the 50 mass it costs may as well be free in mid-late game), well... I'm fairly certain that they would have lost anyway. And if the only way that *you* can win is by relying on luck and that they aren't scouting for minutes at a time...

I believe that the change is the lesser of two evils in this case. You can make all the comparisons that you like about macro and micro, but in my mind there are two types of micro that should be distinguished:

1) "good" micro, where you must actively focus your attention on units to make them perform better. (eg, microing LABs to win vs other LABs; microing ASF to win vs other ASF)
2) "bad" micro, where you must actively focus your attention on units due to a UI deficiency. In this case, needing to watch your ACU for a visual effect to determine if it is being hit by PDs. IMO, this is caused by bad UI and is a bug.

Do I like being given free intel on PDs? Not really, I don't think that's a perfect solution. Will it dramatically impact many areas of the game? Not really, it will primarily "nerf" PD firebase wars, which are almost never seen in a "pro" game anyway as there are far more effective ways of utilizing mass on both sides.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 11 Dec 2011, 14:28

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T12:29:20+02:00

The fix also fix the UEF battlecruiser and Sera destroyer, same bug.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Dec 2011, 12:29

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-11T04:05:48+02:00

I won the two games because of two things, they were distracted and they didn't scout. Even though they knew I was Seraphim and was PD creeping, the only thing they didn't know is that I built a Stealth Field Generator not a Shield Generator which lead them to believe I wasn't creeping in range yet.

It's fairly risky since I have to put myself within range of their PDs and one fly-over with any air unit could get me killed.

To be honest I'm mainly trying to defend Cybran players, because if I lose the strategy to stealth creep as Seraphim I'll just put up one of those amazing shields and laugh since my T2 PD was buffed a little.

Cybran players will just be a bit more aggravated with their still crappy shields.

Then we'll get all the complaints about Cybran and Seraphim T2 PDs being too strong.

Are you sure it isn't just an accidental bug they decided to keep? Afterall Cybran and Seraphim T2 PDs don't even make it over hills, they have to have some kind of advantage to outweigh the dreaded counter of....hills....

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 11 Dec 2011, 04:05

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-10T23:59:27+02:00

Post replays where you actually win a fight because of that bug.

I've replays where I lose a game because the lasers are not that obvious.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 10 Dec 2011, 23:59

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-10T23:41:06+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
Reddev32 wrote:If this is cause its different to starcraft really come one.

starcraft maybe very active but its not fa and its not supcom nor ever it will be.

the new changes are great fa's getting better all teh time
gpgnet fa's u can't see them fire so ya faf is better then gpgnets. please stop complaing at teh great work pilots doing

You completely missed it Reddev

I'm complaining at this ONE CHANGE not the entire patch or all the work that Ze_Pilot has done, this is actually the only thing I disagree with out of all the changes, because the others were problems and were fixed very well (thank you!). This one just adds a new bug to the game to eliminate another one at the expense of 2 factions, while the original bug didn't really give the other 2 factions an advantage. It's not hard to figure out what's shooting your ACU especially since you know what faction is in the area your ACU is...just stop being lazy and scout the area...

You can tell waht shooting u by looking at your acu and how it its you so if it shows or does not u still know whats hitting you. and not all pd's will show wheres its firing from

Statistics: Posted by Reddev32 — 10 Dec 2011, 23:41

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-10T23:37:50+02:00

Reddev32 wrote:
If this is cause its different to starcraft really come one.

starcraft maybe very active but its not fa and its not supcom nor ever it will be.

the new changes are great fa's getting better all teh time
gpgnet fa's u can't see them fire so ya faf is better then gpgnets. please stop complaing at teh great work pilots doing

You completely missed it Reddev

I'm complaining at this ONE CHANGE not the entire patch or all the work that Ze_Pilot has done, this is actually the only thing I disagree with out of all the changes, because the others were problems and were fixed very well (thank you!). This one just adds a new bug to the game to eliminate another one at the expense of 2 factions, while the original bug didn't really give the other 2 factions an advantage. It's not hard to figure out what's shooting your ACU especially since you know what faction is in the area your ACU is...just stop being lazy and scout the area...

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 10 Dec 2011, 23:37

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-10T23:26:11+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
Ze_PilOt wrote:I really don't see why the laser should be invisible in the first place.

Don't make any twisted logic for a bug, it was not intended by GPG.

FA is a game where you should concentrate on your strategy and tactics. Not looking closely on little sparkles on your units or shields, or even if the health of your unit is decreasing by itself (or force the player to play with these health bar on - it's not starcraft -).

- By the way, if the laser hit a shield, even a personal one, the laser will be invisible -

It's not twisted logic since the fix for the bug is by giving it a new bug.....

Maybe there's a graphic problem then because I'm playing on Medium and I see the sparks within a sec of zooming in and out.....That's why the strategic zoom is there so you can go from Micro'ing to Macro'ing VERY QUICKLY.....plus how many games have been lost to not scouting? T2 PD creeps are the same way except with the "new bug" Cybran (and their horrible shields) and Seraphim don't need to be scouted...

Forced to play with health bars on? It's default on when you first start the game and it's not health bars. It's the same area that tells you if you have an idle engy...

This game was made with --> Micro'ing and Macro'ing in mind, not just one <-- Just look at most of Aeon's units as well as Seraphim's...and now you're gonna tell me that having to zoom in and out via the convenient strategic zoom is too much micro'ing for this game? And then say it's "no starcraft?" You have played Starcraft right? I've played them both and like the first 1 (because it's not actually a clickfest if you know what you're doing) and the 2nd one is an insane clickfest which I hate completely.

So I must assume you've never played any starcraft game to try and compare any strategy or tactic in FA to that of starcraft....

Most tactics used to snipe out ACU's uses Micro'ing, you're just eliminating a tactic for 2 of 4 factions this way...

Oh and can we remove the clickfest in air vs air combat then? Because I don't really hear many people complaining about that....I mean what is this? Starcraft 2?

What's FunkOff's beacon fix mentioned?

Still confused about why this fix was needed since everyone was quite happy about the game and claimed to only need small tiny tweaks if any balance changes at all...

If this is cause its different to starcraft really come one.

starcraft maybe very active but its not fa and its not supcom nor ever it will be.

the new changes are great fa's getting better all teh time
gpgnet fa's u can't see them fire so ya faf is better then gpgnets. please stop complaing at teh great work pilots doing

Statistics: Posted by Reddev32 — 10 Dec 2011, 23:26

Re: 3609 T2 PDs imbalanced

2011-12-10T23:23:12+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I really don't see why the laser should be invisible in the first place.

Don't make any twisted logic for a bug, it was not intended by GPG.

FA is a game where you should concentrate on your strategy and tactics. Not looking closely on little sparkles on your units or shields, or even if the health of your unit is decreasing by itself (or force the player to play with these health bar on - it's not starcraft -).

- By the way, if the laser hit a shield, even a personal one, the laser will be invisible -

It's not twisted logic since the fix for the bug is by giving it a new bug.....

Maybe there's a graphic problem then because I'm playing on Medium and I see the sparks within a sec of zooming in and out.....That's why the strategic zoom is there so you can go from Micro'ing to Macro'ing VERY QUICKLY.....plus how many games have been lost to not scouting? T2 PD creeps are the same way except with the "new bug" Cybran (and their horrible shields) and Seraphim don't need to be scouted...

Forced to play with health bars on? It's default on when you first start the game and it's not health bars. It's the same area that tells you if you have an idle engy...

This game was made with --> Micro'ing and Macro'ing in mind, not just one <-- Just look at most of Aeon's units as well as Seraphim's...and now you're gonna tell me that having to zoom in and out via the convenient strategic zoom is too much micro'ing for this game? And then say it's "no starcraft?" You have played Starcraft right? I've played them both and like the first 1 (because it's not actually a clickfest if you know what you're doing) and the 2nd one is an insane clickfest which I hate completely.

So I must assume you've never played any starcraft game to try and compare any strategy or tactic in FA to that of starcraft....

Most tactics used to snipe out ACU's uses Micro'ing, you're just eliminating a tactic for 2 of 4 factions this way...

Oh and can we remove the clickfest in air vs air combat then? Because I don't really hear many people complaining about that....I mean what is this? Starcraft 2?

What's FunkOff's beacon fix mentioned?

Still confused about why this fix was needed since everyone was quite happy about the game and claimed to only need small tiny tweaks if any balance changes at all...

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 10 Dec 2011, 23:23