Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-08T23:01:34+02:00

Oh yeah, they're perfect as they are now. It's not like killing destroyers is their job, but being able to do it in a modest way makes them very nice. They're first job is to kill subs and torpedoes in general and they're doing a very good job at that, with a nice bonus to add to it.

Or, if you're testing 2 vs 1 then that might work better too (it'd make it easier to anticipate their firing cycle and dodge at the rate times)

The situation (actual multiplayer game) went perfectly for the time I had 2 coopers vs 1 destroyer but as soon as the second one came along, it went downhill. Pretty much like your testing.

I'd like to give it a test but I'm unable to play FA during the week and next weekend I'll probably not be playing because of TES5: Skyrim

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 08 Nov 2011, 23:01

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-08T09:33:38+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Penguin, did you keep the coopers at their maximum range? My micro vs some destroyer was easy until I got too close. Then the coopers were killed a lot faster.

Hmm.. Not exactly. I did stay more or less at their max range (since that makes it easier to avoid the projectiles), but I basically just got them into range and then, if the Destros had stopped moving away, I gave them a bunch of sharp-turn move orders in that area. I think it's pretty hard to get the Coopers in range (50) and keep them outside the torp range on Destros (45), but I agree that the Coopers would definitely do better if you could avoid the extra DPS from the torps. On the other hand, if your maneuvering (to dodge) moves Coopers outside their max range then you'll probably end up decreasing their effective DPS.

I also tried the 5 vs 2 ratio vs Salems and I was able to sink one Salem (after giving the Salems an oblique angle move-away order that maximized their 80 range).

Have you tried this and done better Plasma Wolf? If so, then you may just be microing better than me. Or, if you're testing 2 vs 1 then that might work better too (it'd make it easier to anticipate their firing cycle and dodge at the rate times). If I were actually worried about Cooper balance then I'd normally test it more seriously, with different scale battles and some more micro practice so I could get use to their movement characteristics, plus some more replication. But it seems like we all agree that they're probably OK as is. The one other implication here is that they could probably do a decent job running down weaker ships (like cruisers), but if you had the choice there then I'd probably use frigates for that task.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 08 Nov 2011, 09:33

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T11:51:24+02:00

Penguin, did you keep the coopers at their maximum range? My micro vs some destroyer was easy until I got too close. Then the coopers were killed a lot faster.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 07 Nov 2011, 11:51

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T06:08:18+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
No, that's quite clearly not what I said.

Yes you did , when you said the range diff was minimal. I just read between the lines.

Mr Pinguin wrote:
It's actually a little peculiar that you're so quick to trust my (quick and dirty) tests even while you're mocking/challenging my analysis.. But anyway... I don't think anyone here was actually arguing that Coopers were OP'd so I guess it's a moot point as far as balancing goes.

Oh no no sorry. I'm not mocking ur analysis, not this one at least. As I said I never tested it really. I have a feeling coming from the fights I've seen, noy from actual tests focused on this. And since your raw tests confirmed what I thought (and still think) I was enclined to believe it, end of story.

Now if it happens that the solution is viable, for the best. It will bring new counters in navies. I'm just curious as well as you guys are.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2011, 06:08

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T05:26:58+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Mr Pinguin wrote:The Valiant range advantage is pretty minimal (60 vs 50 for the Coopers), and the Valiants are slower (speed 5 vs speed 6) and their turret can't shoot directly backwards (just like the Cybran and Aeon destros), so I don't think they can do that much kiting.

So you're basically sayin that I'm right and that you need to micro the destros

No, that's quite clearly not what I said.

-_V_- wrote:
Mr Pinguin wrote:[edit: I just tested this a couple times on my own (2 Valiants vs 4 Coopers), and I don't think the coopers are much of a match for Valiants. I may not be the absolute best micro-er (I think I'm pretty decent..), but the fact is that a couple Valiants put out a pretty good RoF and they actually have OK torp defense and, of course, way more HP. So even though I was able to dance and dodge a ton of fire from the Valiants, a few lucky hits is all you need to lose your Coopers. That said, this may work better vs Exodus or some other destro..

Confirming what I thought without trying. Those torp boats are amazing but just against submarines. They are like babies vs any surfacing ship

Hmmm, I don't know about 'babies.' They actually inflicted pretty good damage to the Destros, and 4 Coopers do cost less Mass than 2 Destros (3600 vs 4500, in fact, I guess I should've tried 5 vs 2).

It's actually a little peculiar that you're so quick to trust my (quick and dirty) tests even while you're mocking/challenging my analysis.. But anyway... I don't think anyone here was actually arguing that Coopers were OP'd so I guess it's a moot point as far as balancing goes.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 07 Nov 2011, 05:26

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T04:20:52+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
The Valiant range advantage is pretty minimal (60 vs 50 for the Coopers), and the Valiants are slower (speed 5 vs speed 6) and their turret can't shoot directly backwards (just like the Cybran and Aeon destros), so I don't think they can do that much kiting.

So you're basically sayin that I'm right and that you need to micro the destros

[edit: I just tested this a couple times on my own (2 Valiants vs 4 Coopers), and I don't think the coopers are much of a match for Valiants. I may not be the absolute best micro-er (I think I'm pretty decent..), but the fact is that a couple Valiants put out a pretty good RoF and they actually have OK torp defense and, of course, way more HP. So even though I was able to dance and dodge a ton of fire from the Valiants, a few lucky hits is all you need to lose your Coopers. That said, this may work better vs Exodus or some other destro..

Confirming what I thought without trying. Those torp boats are amazing but just against submarines. They are like babies vs any surfacing ship

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2011, 04:20

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T03:52:56+02:00

-_V_- wrote:
Of course I need the Valiants to move ...to use their range advantage especially since they can hit while running!

The Valiant range advantage is pretty minimal (60 vs 50 for the Coopers), and the Valiants are slower (speed 5 vs speed 6) and their turret can't shoot directly backwards (just like the Cybran and Aeon destros), so I don't think they can do that much kiting.

Even if they can kite, it will only last for a few seconds. You could still simulate that on your own by giving the Valiants an oblique angle move order (and switching to the coopers to close in and micro). Anything more than that and you're likely to decrease the Valiants RoF by wasting time moving it around. It will track its targets better and fire faster if you're not trying to move it away. This same issue comes up when you try to micro battleships. You can actually waste a lot of their DPS if you spend too much time moving them around because their turrets can't turn fast enough or far enough to get a fix on the target.

[edit: I just tested this a couple times on my own (2 Valiants vs 4 Coopers), and I don't think the coopers are much of a match for Valiants. I may not be the absolute best micro-er (I think I'm pretty decent..), but the fact is that a couple Valiants put out a pretty good RoF and they actually have OK torp defense and, of course, way more HP. So even though I was able to dance and dodge a ton of fire from the Valiants, a few lucky hits is all you need to lose your Coopers. That said, this may work better vs Exodus or some other destro..

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 07 Nov 2011, 03:52

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T02:46:27+02:00

Of course I need the Valiants to move ...to use their range advantage especially since they can hit while running!

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2011, 02:46

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T02:44:42+02:00

You can probably test that by yourself in Sandbox since you don't really need the Valiants to move (they have longer range). Just spawn them and give them a target, then switch over to the Coopers and see if you can dodge and kill..?

The really tricky micro might take two humans though, since the Coopers could gain an additional advantage if they could move behind the Valiants..?

Anyway, I'll try it later tonight if I have time.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 07 Nov 2011, 02:44

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-07T02:06:24+02:00

I admit I never tried, but I'm almost sure it's not a viable solution.

Let's try it in sbox someone ? I would need someone to micro one side of the boats

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 07 Nov 2011, 02:06

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-06T22:03:12+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Well, coopers are 900 and destroyers are 2250... so it sound likes coopers can mass-efficiently kill uef destroyers.

^This.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Possibly, but I doubt it'll work in large numbers. How do you micro all of the coopers there (It might work if they all do the same thing when you give them all one and the same move order), but then there's still the possibility that the intended target doesn't get hit but unintentional targets get the full blow, with the same result: dead coopers.

Anyway, I do think UEF coopers are good as they are now. They are capable of doing what they're meant to do and can occasionally take on a destroyer.

True, but it doesn't have to work in large numbers to be effective. If you can build a few coopers out of your T2 fac and the other guy builds destroyers, and you win, then you have naval superiority.

I'm not saying that it's a problem though. Naval weapons have relatively slow projectile speeds and various muzzle-turn-radius aiming limitations, so ship micro is always going to be a factor in naval combat. And, as I was just arguing to FunkOff in the other thread: It's ok if Coopers can give a player an early naval superiority edge because Coopers are an anti-naval specialist unit. They can't raid Mexes or Pgens anyway.

I actually prefer that balance because it gets away from the more obvious approach of Destroyer spam, which allows people to control the sea *and* start destroying enemy structures on the shore.

Statistics: Posted by Mr Pinguin — 06 Nov 2011, 22:03

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-06T21:51:37+02:00

Possibly, but I doubt it'll work in large numbers. How do you micro all of the coopers there (It might work if they all do the same thing when you give them all one and the same move order), but then there's still the possibility that the intended target doesn't get hit but unintentional targets get the full blow, with the same result: dead coopers.

Anyway, I do think UEF coopers are good as they are now. They are capable of doing what they're meant to do and can occasionally take on a destroyer.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 06 Nov 2011, 21:51

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-06T15:57:19+02:00

Well, coopers are 900 and destroyers are 2250... so it sound likes coopers can mass-efficiently kill uef destroyers.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 06 Nov 2011, 15:57

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-06T12:21:37+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
@The T2 Torp boat discussion: I've known some people to use T2 Torp boats vs surface ships, simply because they're so fast and cheap that they can do a good job of dodging (e.g., vs Cybran and Aeon) and overwhelming Destroyers with their own torps and excellent torp defense. I've never really tried this myself though, so I don't know how viable it is. If it works, it's just a secondary bonus to the Cooper's awesome anti-sub power.

I've tried it once but only in small numbers: three coopers vs two UEF destroyers. All coopers got lost but one destroyer down and the other at 10%.

Problem is, it costs a lot of micro and as V said, in large numbers it's almost impossible to pull it off.
Edit: To see the Tempest in action, along with other sorts of stuff: download the replay

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 06 Nov 2011, 12:21

Re: Aeon T2 naval with mobile shields

2011-11-06T03:48:18+02:00

Mr Pinguin wrote:
@The T2 Torp boat discussion: I've known some people to use T2 Torp boats vs surface ships, simply because they're so fast and cheap that they can do a good job of dodging (e.g., vs Cybran and Aeon) and overwhelming Destroyers with their own torps and excellent torp defense. I've never really tried this myself though, so I don't know how viable it is. If it works, it's just a secondary bonus to the Cooper's awesome anti-sub power.

I don't think that it's a viable solution because of the short range and the cost of the ships.
For each 2 torps boats group, the opponent almost got another destro, and the gap grows exponentially with the number of destros.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Nov 2011, 03:48