Forged Alliance Forever

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-07-26T10:31:38+02:00

I've checked the 1v1 win ratio average, and it's currently 46%.

As I don't bias the matchmaker to match you with better than you then worst than you, we can assume that the system works almost perfectly (perfectly would be 50%) and the rating are reliable.

So, if two players are having a game quality > 90% during these tests, we can assume that their level is virtually the same and the result could be consistent.
One way to prove it would be to make them fight 20 times on a map they both know, they should win about 10 matches each.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 26 Jul 2012, 10:31

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-07-26T10:20:14+02:00

That one is difficult to do properly.

I would also accept all replays where one of you goes bomber first and we look at who won/lost.
It would be too hard to do it with "all else being the same", which would be required to have the rest of the game as a control.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 26 Jul 2012, 10:20

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-07-26T05:17:12+02:00

WTF...
Do you mean to suggest we actually investigate this rather than yell out our opinion? That sounds suspiciously like science. Common, are we really going to try to learn something?

In all seriousness though, great idea! We should make sure we get some input from noobs and mid range players, as well as top ranked.

Statistics: Posted by Roscoe — 26 Jul 2012, 05:17

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-07-25T07:58:35+02:00

First, is there really a problem ?

On my last 10 ranked games, 1 was opened with bomber first.
On my last 50 ranked games, I never lost because of bomber first. At worst, the bomber first made my opponent even in term of land occupation.

A valid test would be :

1. You lose to bomber first.
2. You do the same match, same map, your opponent can't go bomber first. You either go land or bomber first and see if you win

Repeat 2. 3 times, with random decisions between bomber first or not.

Then, swap again, you can't do bomber first, your opponent can pick randomly.

Note all the results and post them with the replays.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 25 Jul 2012, 07:58

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-07-25T06:27:28+02:00

I agree that the bomber is relatively ballenced on the whole, the only problem is the opening. It does seem difficult to change the opening without changing the unit however, so if the unit is changed the following could be considered:
1: increase both cost and effectiveness of t1 bomber. You still get the same bang for your buck, it just happens a bit later in the game.
2: remove radar from bomber, have people use air scouts for radar. Honestly a t1 bomber with radar feels like a t1 arty with radar. Seems kinda silly right?
3: increase build time of bomber and only slightly increase it's effectiveness. It would make it slightly more cost effective in general but wouldn't be as strong a first opener.

Now let us consider ways to adjust the viability of the opening without changing the unit:
1: (already mentioned) increase the cost or build time of airfac a bit
2: (already mentioned) make acu unable to initiate build on airfac (unless it has a tech upgrade)
3: reduce the damage engineers take from t1 bombers
4: give ACU's a minor aa weapon, about as strong as a t1 moble aa
5: make ints a better counter to t1 bomber, maybe cheaper and/or radar that only sees flying units

Just some thoughts. I would kind of like to see acu's have a minor aa weapon, might be interesting to see if it has any effect on ghetto gunship tactics. My hope would be that it matters only a little, meaning that ghetto gunships are still usefull in the same way but that it might need only a tiny bit more backup. But who knows.

Really the best thing to do when imballence is present is to abuse it to excess, proving the point that it needs a fix. If people who loose to bomber first builds complain then people don't listen to much, loosers always complain about things that kill them. If everyone does it all the time then it will be clear that something needs to be done.

Statistics: Posted by Roscoe — 25 Jul 2012, 06:27

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-06-01T11:55:05+02:00

T1 bomber is fine as long as it is not the first unit made. Stop commander from being able to build air factories and it will be fine.

Statistics: Posted by noobymcnoobcake — 01 Jun 2012, 11:55

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-22T02:05:55+02:00

Doompants wrote:
Besides.. that stuff is better left for something like a sequel to SupCom... if they ever make one.

I think they did make a sequel to SupCom, I wonder if it has any of that stuff in it?

Statistics: Posted by SpinDrah — 22 Mar 2012, 02:05

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-22T01:29:59+02:00

Besides.. that stuff is better left for something like a sequel to SupCom... if they ever make one.

Statistics: Posted by Doompants — 22 Mar 2012, 01:29

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-21T21:42:24+02:00

It appears that several people's Sarcasm Detectors need recalibrating.

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 21 Mar 2012, 21:42

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-19T10:18:00+02:00

SpinDrah wrote:
What if we had Upgrades for LandFac? Like AA,Radar,Shield,And Arty!!!!!

For the simple task of helping you organize a better defense against bomber first all those are overkill (especially the arty).

Statistics: Posted by Blue — 19 Mar 2012, 10:18

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-19T10:01:54+02:00

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 19 Mar 2012, 10:01

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-19T02:08:08+02:00

Blue wrote:
What if LAND factories start with built-in radar? Non-uprgadable, of course.
Better than a scout, worse than a 'true' radar.
(...Somehow like the bomber?)

What if we had Upgrades for LandFac? Like AA,Radar,Shield,And Arty!!!!!

Statistics: Posted by SpinDrah — 19 Mar 2012, 02:08

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-18T22:40:34+02:00

What if LAND factories start with built-in radar? Non-uprgadable, of course.
Better than a scout, worse than a 'true' radar.
(...Somehow like the bomber?)

Statistics: Posted by Blue — 18 Mar 2012, 22:40

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-16T17:01:49+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Ints cost 2250 energy vs bombers only costing 1400. Therefore, it's a lot more expensive to go int first and a lot more useless, because ints don't even have radar, so they can't find bombers to shoot them, and it's riskier because the energy cost is so much higher.

Wow, so bombers are cheaper than ints these days? Somehow that doesnt seem... just?

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 16 Mar 2012, 17:01

Re: T1 Bomber is OP

2012-03-14T10:53:43+02:00

Zock wrote:
Its a design decision. The first bomber is the only unit wich forces the opponent to micro to defend against it. With LAbs or other units, the atacker can choose to micro to increase the effectivity, but the defender can just build tanks and choose not to micro but defend against it with a counter unit. A single tank + the engy he should protect may still be killed by microed LABs, but thats not as bad as a vet1 bomber over your base that destroyed a multiple of its costed mass already.

To defend against a microed first bomber, you are forced to micro, and i wouldn't say the engy/aa/scout micro is easier then micro a single bomber. If you don't micro every single unit, the first bomber will most likley give its owner a huge advantage. Even a not microed first bomber against a not microing defender will kill very likley a multiple of its cost.

I don't like games beeing heavily affected or even decided by micro in the first 5 minutes, thats not what FA should be. Especially for people who can't micro perfect this makes a bomber rush a strategy wich can decide the game early with a huge random factor and has nothing to do with strategy anymore.

I posted that already in one of the countless other bomber threads, though.

This.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 14 Mar 2012, 10:53