Forged Alliance Forever

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-31T14:14:27+02:00

Burden of proof works as follows:
Person X says "This is the case".
Person Y says "I don't believe you, prove it".
It is upon Person X to supply evidence to their statement.
Neither of you used it correctly.
Thread is now just arguments for the sake of it.

Statistics: Posted by Gowerly — 31 Jul 2012, 14:14

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-31T14:08:48+02:00

I agree with Dili here but I think this thread has derailed too far off, and in a wrong direction. It should be locked IMO.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 31 Jul 2012, 14:08

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-31T13:36:34+02:00

GuardPatroller wrote:
You seem to be getting upset. Let me tell you, any four year old can get mad, but it takes a man to do something. You get me a video of you actually doing something on the controller and maybe I'll reconsider my standing. You can easily play Supreme Commander 2 on X-box because that game hardly requires thought, skill or strategy.

Firstly, as I stated I'm not mad I'm bored. You're not listening. No I will not get a video of me playing supcom xbox because I feel the burden of proof at this stage is on you. I have played xbox supcom and so it seems rather arrogant of you to simply come in and assume a position of authority on the matter. No it is not SupCom 2. No it is not SupCom FA. The Xbox SupCom that I refer to is exactly that, the vanilla game (with some balancing tweaks and additions) adapted for xbox.

GuardPatroller wrote:
So you are mad, attempting to make insults at me?

If I wanted to insult you I would use some more choice language. The FACTS are that you have not tried the game, and are telling me that its control scheme is poor...
Well reconsidering my comments perhaps a lack of imagination isn't the problem but rather a case of straight forward ignorance and inability to listen. No I am not going out of my way to insult you, this is my honest assessment of your arguments against the xbox version.

GuardPatroller wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, you're upset with people who can afford a computer to game as opposed to some $300 X-box 360 (good luck finding even a $500 computer that runs SC:FA well) so you choose here to bash us.

I have a computer that runs it just fine. I have an xbox that runs it fine too. Does this make me upset? No. What really does start to make me annoyed is your suggestion that because someone can't afford a "superior" platform then thats the reason they argue for the "inferior" platform. Well to me that's a whole load of elitist bullshit. Yes, I am annoyed now.

GuardPatroller wrote:
What facts?

Then let me quote myself:

DilliDalli wrote:
I can play just as quick on xbox supcom as I can on Pc,

DilliDalli wrote:
Yes the control system was different, but with a little time put in then it becomes second nature finding your way around, and it was totally possible for me to issue commands as nearly as quickly as I do on computer.

The fact that this was possible for a game not even originally made with the xbox in mind, on a console largely designed for fps, just goes to show that with a bit of adaption rts does fit on the console.

Thats not to say it was perfect, the xbox version suffered from a lack of any kind of chat system/ lobby to see whos online, the splitting up of the community (there was a US and EU/Australia version that couldn't play together) and no kind of balance fixes whatsoever. Furthermore there was serious lag issues in late game, as well as pretty regular crashing and freezing upon the end of a game. As a proof of concept for an rts control scheme on a console, it worked well.

DilliDalli wrote:
given my experience on xbox,

Perhaps not quite facts but all insights based on solid experience.

GuardPatroller wrote:
I said it's inefficient,

Well I say otherwise. Do you have any evidence or experience to back up this statement? For me the control schemes ease of use and intuitiveness was one of the best bits.

GuardPatroller wrote:
I prefer playing it on the PC,

So do I. Something you would have found out if you had bothered to read my posts.

GuardPatroller wrote:
We're having what's called a debate,

Anyone can make statements and have a position on a matter. Justification of those positions is another matter. I have always through this thread backed up any statements I have made with the reasons I believe them to be true. If I am presented with a set of better reasons for an opposing view, I am ready to reconsider my position.

GuardPatroller wrote:
and I'm sorry that the only debate you had was with your mother about getting out of her house and going to college. (If we're playing the insult game...)

Apology accepted, and I am not playing the insulting game. Maybe you would like to start a new thread if you wish to start that as it is rather of topic.

GuardPatroller wrote:
and you may take an all-expense-paid trip to hell if you think I'm any less of a person because of my preferences.

Feel free to have your preferences, but don't start insulting me when I disagree. I will however take you up on the all expenses paid trip if you're still ok with that.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 31 Jul 2012, 13:36

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-31T04:53:11+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
That seems to suggest you haven't tried it, and tbh I'm getting rather bored of repeating myself

You seem to be getting upset. Let me tell you, any four year old can get mad, but it takes a man to do something. You get me a video of you actually doing something on the controller and maybe I'll reconsider my standing. You can easily play Supreme Commander 2 on X-box because that game hardly requires thought, skill or strategy.

DilliDalli wrote:
I can play just as quick on xbox supcom as I can on Pc, and as I outline in my previous post the problems with the game had nothing to do with the interface.

This feels like a bit of a prejudice against consoles here, just because its a console doesn't mean its inferior.

DilliDalli wrote:
When you've actually tried the game GuardPatroller then I might be minded for you to tell me what is and isn't possible on it. If such a control scheme on a console is beyond your imagination then maybe you need to go back to a simpler game. As far as I'm concerned all this is is a bunch of computer players knocking the console version when they haven't tried it. My suggestion is you go home and get your facts right or find something else to trash talk about.

So you are mad, attempting to make insults at me? Are we talking about SC:FA, or SC2, because both are very different games (to state simply, one takes strategy and one can be played easily by ten year olds, I've played both on a computer) and I don't see what the point is with trying to press a series of buttons when I could easily click, drag, click, move mouse, and click.

As far as I'm concerned, you're upset with people who can afford a computer to game as opposed to some $300 X-box 360 (good luck finding even a $500 computer that runs SC:FA well) so you choose here to bash us. My suggestion is you grow the hell up and quit accusing us of something we aren't doing.

What facts? You haven't said anything that takes a second of thought, you're just insulting us. And who's talking trash? I said it's inefficient, and if that's the fact you're talking about, it's obviously correct. And trust me, no one's insulting your precious X-box. We're having what's called a debate, and I'm sorry that the only debate you had was with your mother about getting out of her house and going to college. (If we're playing the insult game...)

I no longer see a purpose in wasting time to argue about you playing the X-box. Personally, I couldn't be motivated to give half a cent about it, so do what you want. I prefer playing it on the PC, and you may take an all-expense-paid trip to hell if you think I'm any less of a person because of my preferences.

Statistics: Posted by GuardPatroller — 31 Jul 2012, 04:53

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-24T12:38:36+02:00

GuardPatroller wrote:
Doubt it highly

That seems to suggest you haven't tried it, and tbh I'm getting rather bored of repeating myself

DilliDalli wrote:
I can play just as quick on xbox supcom as I can on Pc, and as I outline in my previous post the problems with the game had nothing to do with the interface.

This feels like a bit of a prejudice against consoles here, just because its a console doesn't mean its inferior.

When you've actually tried the game GuardPatroller then I might be minded for you to tell me what is and isn't possible on it. If such a control scheme on a console is beyond your imagination then maybe you need to go back to a simpler game. As far as I'm concerned all this is is a bunch of computer players knocking the console version when they haven't tried it. My suggestion is you go home and get your facts right or find something else to trash talk about.

And now that we've totally manged to deviate from the thread...

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 24 Jul 2012, 12:38

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-24T08:35:09+02:00

Sins of a Solar Empire. Right click, drag, look around in 3D. Impossible with a controller. (and I ran this game past recommended on my crappy computer that lagged with only two hard AI on a 20km map. I had an ATI Radeon HD Mobility 4200 series. LOL)

Same thing with FA, just without the extra prettiness of 3D mode and additional control options of moving up or down. On the Xbox, is it possible for you to select multiple units and move them somewhere across the map, upgrade your ACU to say, tier 2, and have factories start building units, all input in two to three seconds? Doubt it highly, and you can with a computer. It was a good effort, but no. Maybe you won't have lag issues, but everyone will have input inefficiency problems.

It's just more efficient to do it with a computer. Do more in less (or even same) time. (How long does it take you on Xbox to scroll between fronts? In computer, you can zoom all the way out to strategic view then back into to a different front in a second.)

Statistics: Posted by GuardPatroller — 24 Jul 2012, 08:35

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T14:26:54+02:00

Pavese wrote:
RTS in the way SupCom works, will never succeed on a Controller based console.

Its this I disagree with. In Sup Com xbox the interface was one of the only things they got right when they adapted it.
Less fit for it, maybe. Less developed on it, definitely. Thats the main distinction for me.

-_V_- wrote:
Would you play the 3D fighing games on a computer ?

No because my graphics card would melt....

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 19 Jul 2012, 14:26

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T14:25:27+02:00

Not sure how fast you play, but i cruise a normal 60 APMs. I can not believe that you can play the entire map with high speed while using a controller.

Evidence is that precise control is much better with a mouse. Console shooters have aiming support and smoothing to compensate for that. The same amount of control is imo necessary to play RTS like Supcom.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 19 Jul 2012, 14:25

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T14:25:28+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
Pavese wrote:RTS in the way SupCom works, will never succeed on a Controller based console. You always will be faster and more comfortable with mouse and keyboard.

I don't feel that you've got any evidence to support this. I can play just as quick on xbox supcom as I can on Pc, and as I outline in my previous post the problems with the game had nothing to do with the interface.

This feels like a bit of a prejudice against consoles here, just because its a console doesn't mean its inferior.

you probably do not use hotkeys. I use the hotbuild mod and build most buildings with it. I am much faster than when I don't use it.

I cant see how you could use a hotkey mod on xbox, as xbox has not as many keys as I would need.

Using the full potential of a keyboard together with the precision of a mouse, you wont ever reach that with a controller.

Statistics: Posted by Kryo — 19 Jul 2012, 14:24

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T14:15:03+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
This feels like a bit of a prejudice against consoles here, just because its a console doesn't mean its inferior.

Not inferior, less fit for it. It's undeniable.

Would you play the 3D fighing games on a computer ? You could but still without a gamepad, good luck

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 19 Jul 2012, 14:15

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T13:20:42+02:00

Pavese wrote:
RTS in the way SupCom works, will never succeed on a Controller based console. You always will be faster and more comfortable with mouse and keyboard.

I don't feel that you've got any evidence to support this. I can play just as quick on xbox supcom as I can on Pc, and as I outline in my previous post the problems with the game had nothing to do with the interface.

This feels like a bit of a prejudice against consoles here, just because its a console doesn't mean its inferior.

Statistics: Posted by Softly — 19 Jul 2012, 13:20

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-19T00:20:56+02:00

RTS in the way SupCom works, will never succeed on a Controller based console. You always will be faster and more comfortable with mouse and keyboard.

Other Strategy games might work better, especially turn based strategy. Real time strategy has other variations like the Europa univeralis/iron heart games. But "dune" type RTS? Not so much.

Statistics: Posted by Pavese — 19 Jul 2012, 00:20

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-18T23:01:48+02:00

I think allot of the ideas in supcom2 were very good, but just didn't work out in practice. The game play horribly as things stand, but like with the engie assist issue in FAF, I think the possible solutions are pretty uncertain, and certainly much more work than GPG can afford to put into the game now.
As for the console issue, Supcom 1 came out on console and didn't affect the awsome game we got on PC. People also forget that system req was the major complaint from PC players back in 07. It just made sense to lower reqs for supcom 2 accross all platforms.
Was a valiant effort all around, but just turned out terribly..

Statistics: Posted by Crayfish — 18 Jul 2012, 23:01

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-13T08:28:14+02:00

DilliDalli wrote:
it was totally possible for me to issue commands as nearly as quickly as I do on computer.

When playin' online against the best players, that is just not good enough. Changing mouse and keyboard is already a pain.

If SCFA never existed and SupCom2 was the sequel to TA, we'd be mostly happy. (considering that even SCFA lost some well-loved features from TA, which made us angry and sad, means you can't please everyone all of the time.)

Speaking for myself, but clearly no. I guess I would have been less disappointed, but happy, seriously not. SC2 is just wrong (apart from the engines improvements that would be avery nice upgrade for FA is that was possible). Well it's a fairly decent RTS but far from good enough to be in the TA/SC/FA lineage.

I actually gave it another shot one week ago or so out of boredom. I still couldn't handle it

In SupCom2, he was operating under much tighter constraints. Besides, every commercial business has to worry about money (ie. selling your soul). Considering that none of CT's games have ever resulted in rivers of gold, shows that he's either unable or unwilling to go for that lucrative evil mass market.

Although this whole is true, I am quite unsure how this could explain/excuse the utter stupidity of removing the ability of assisting factories (just an example).

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 13 Jul 2012, 08:28

Re: proof that Chris Taylor has sold his soul

2012-07-10T15:42:52+02:00

I think SupCom2 succeeded admirably at the goals it set out to achieve. (well, apart from the story, maybe.)

The problem was, it wasnt the goals we wanted it to have. We wanted more of the same, but bigger, better, more moddable, more supported, etc.

That wasn't going to fly in the business environment at the time (or even now.) SupCom2 was designed to be the best game it could be, on a limited budget, on console as well as PC, with all the hardware and control limitations, whilst still capturing the essence of SupCom: Strat zoom, large armies, continuous production, experimentals, giant nukes.

If SCFA never existed and SupCom2 was the sequel to TA, we'd be mostly happy. (considering that even SCFA lost some well-loved features from TA, which made us angry and sad, means you can't please everyone all of the time.)

---------------------------------

It's unfair to say CT "sold his soul". If you listen to the TA interview from the same channel, you'd see that he said he was given unprecedented freedom for TA. I daresay that he had a lot of freedom for SupCom1 as well. In SupCom2, he was operating under much tighter constraints. Besides, every commercial business has to worry about money (ie. selling your soul). Considering that none of CT's games have ever resulted in rivers of gold, shows that he's either unable or unwilling to go for that lucrative evil mass market.

Personally, I'm hoping SCom3 (or whatever the next RTS in this lineage) is a kickstarted/self-funded project, with reduced/streamlined graphics, limited story content, but all the great features, units, moddability and UI that we love from TA/SCom/SCom2.

But if he's not going to do it, maybe one day I will
(fat chance tho)

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 10 Jul 2012, 15:42