Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-25T13:25:09+02:00

You can rid the vessel, but you won't cure the disease....

General FaF player base is not really going to become adept at many maps simply because they don't care to. Gap is like the Hydra, where if you cut one down, 3 more will arrive.

Just look at the map vault and look at the amount of "variations" there are of the same map over and over clogging up the whole place like a person who puts coffee grinds in a sink....

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 25 Apr 2018, 13:25

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-23T00:43:44+02:00

"Well you guys know if you just accepted the tumor, you'd probably gain more weight than if you took chemo to try to kill it"

Smh I'd be willing to lose 400 dual gap players to get 1 new 2k player that plays varied maps. What does "embracing this style of play" even mean? Are we going to balance the game based on nuke rush and tele rush? Do we increase strat HP because 2 sams on the map make strats totally useless? Do we give every faction T3 PD so that they can win on the front slot against UEF?

Nah son, rather introduce team matchmaker and force all these dudes to play it by unranking all custom game lobbies.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 23 Apr 2018, 00:43

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-22T16:35:14+02:00

There's a lot of "ban thermo/gap/whatever so that people will play real maps" in here. However that is relying on the very risky assumption that those people will go off and play real maps, when in reality most of them will just leave and play a different game.

FAF would probably grow more if it embraced this style of play, which is clearly appealing to a lot of people, instead of trying to kill it.

Statistics: Posted by Tya — 22 Apr 2018, 16:35

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-20T10:38:54+02:00

ZeP tried to fight Thermo. He deleted many versions of it and it didn't work. But once he unranked this crap i noticed much less thermo being hosted. Here's solution for you.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 20 Apr 2018, 10:38

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-20T10:28:18+02:00

I agree with much that is being sad here.

Gap of Rohan, Thermo, no rush island or whatever just remove a large part of the depth of the game. Which is their choice of course, but I think if they know what they are missing, that they will have a lot more fun with the game.

They are probably just afraid to get rushed or to have too little time to respond etc.. But by playing these maps they will never learn either, it's like a chicken and egg problem.

In my perception most of the maps hosted at the moment are the kind of maps we are talking about right now. At this point I am wishing for a filter to not see them anymore.

What perhaps an idea would be is to implement a pop-up when somebody hosts or joins a rohan like map which links to an alternative nice map in the mapvault, perhaps linked with a nice gyle cast and a how to play tutorial.

Just an idea.

Statistics: Posted by H-master — 20 Apr 2018, 10:28

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T18:34:02+02:00

uzurpator wrote:
On what? The overall tendency of games on those maps to drag?

You claimed a Gap game can't be won in 7 minutes.
I claimed it can.
You then provided the caveat that the players then have to be not shit.
That's a back pedal

uzurpator wrote:
Missing the point once again? Because either the rating system is complete bunk and those 1k guys were -200 in disguise, or I am an epic, misunderstood player because I can use an obvious choke point on an overplayed map to build some t2 PDs, tmds, t2 pgen, stelath gen and a shield.

It isn't. It is a sign of failed map design. if we put _some_ trust in the rating system, then two 1k guys should gangbang 700 guy into oblivion. It happened because thermo is, well, thermo.

We'll see if you can understand this analogy then.
If I cut off one of your arms and one of your legs and gave you a bumbling retard also missing and arm and a leg, can you climb a fence?

uzurpator wrote:
Which proves my point, now does it not?... ...Once again: people flock to choke maps because of relative safety.

Except the choke-point isn't the limiting factor, the limiting factor is how long it takes to get shit from point A to point B

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 17 Apr 2018, 18:34

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T14:30:56+02:00

I like the double post

Statistics: Posted by TheKoopa — 17 Apr 2018, 14:30

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T14:29:20+02:00

biass wrote:
That's because the game is filling with stream fans,

Ok. I take that as true.

This should not be considered a mark of distinction.

It isn't. It is a sign of failed map design. if we put _some_ trust in the rating system, then two 1k guys should gangbang 700 guy into oblivion. It happened because thermo is, well, thermo.

Being unable to fill a wonder lobby in the most common rating demographic calls your ability to host into question.

I don't host. I join.

maybe because you're not even trying to host and just join gap games while complaining about them simultaneously?

I join games which are available. Considering rating requirements, it is gap more often then not.

Sure, which one?

From memory. I am rated 700, the guy was 600. we played east. I was tech/second navy olive UEF. He was red south air player. Cybran AFAIR. I don't have FAF on hand, so I can't double check.

Statistics: Posted by uzurpator — 17 Apr 2018, 14:29

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T14:15:07+02:00

@FtxCommando:

I think there is a little misunderstanding here. I'm not here to find excuses for my suckage. Why I suck is between me and my desire to spend time improving. Hint: when you have an hour per day to game and you do so before bed, it isn't all that much. Also - waiting 30 minutes in a lobby is hardly a selling point.

I'm here to shed light why people seem to flock to Gap/Dgap/Astro/Pass and even then, why they avoid front positions. I think that people much more invested in this game (I persume: you) would be intrested how to pull people away from those maps.

But If you prefer to concentrate what _could_ be done in my games, fine. You do that.

BTW. I don't have an issue with playing with 1500+ people. It's the 1500+ people that have an issue with me.

@moonbearonmeth

Nice back-pedal.

On what? The overall tendency of games on those maps to drag? It's self evident rally.

Are these actually the only real threats or the only threats you can think of?

No. These are things that I actually had to deal with and failed more often then succeeded - in the context of those maps specifically. If I face something else I can't deal with, Ill inform you. But I haven't played much of thermo lately, focusing on my navy play, because Sera navy annoys me.

Then if the distance is the limiting factor the scale of time must be increased and it will still be a 'relatively' quick victory.

Which proves my point, now does it not? If a -100 guy can expect 20 minutes of game out of Dual Gap, while on, say Open Palms, someone will knock at your door at minute 3.

Once again: people flock to choke maps because of relative safety.

And if you pit someone with 700 against two people with 1000 it doesn't mean the latter has 2000, just someone with 1000 and double the resources which he can misspend twice as well.

Missing the point once again? Because either the rating system is complete bunk and those 1k guys were -200 in disguise, or I am an epic, misunderstood player because I can use an obvious choke point on an overplayed map to build some t2 PDs, tmds, t2 pgen, stelath gen and a shield.

And some walls, because walls are awesome.

Statistics: Posted by uzurpator — 17 Apr 2018, 14:15

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T14:00:01+02:00

uzurpator wrote:
I often watch Heaven's streams and his games, with its 1200+ limt fill _faster_ then those mid-level non-Gap things.

That's because the game is filling with stream fans, i could score game after game of Dawn of War 2 (which has an active chat base of 30 people) because the games would fill with fans wanting to go play with their idol.

uzurpator wrote:
I mean - my 700 rated arse has managed to cock-block two 1000s on thermo in the mid, because that map is so broken. In normal game that could not happen.

This should not be considered a mark of distinction.
Speaking from trainer experience, a 600 is a few corrected issues away from being a 1000, and a 600 who plays in your opinion like a 1000 should not be considered a smurf.

Being unable to fill a wonder lobby in the most common rating demographic calls your ability to host into question. Regardless of what you think about wonder and gap (that they're both the same and the people playing on one are more snobby then the other) you should be filling games no matter the map unless you're doing something blatantly wrong,

maybe because you're not even trying to host and just join gap games while complaining about them simultaneously?

uzurpator wrote:
An extreme example: just a few days ago I played a gap game.

Sure, which one?

Statistics: Posted by biass — 17 Apr 2018, 14:00

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-17T12:27:03+02:00

uzurpator wrote:
If the mid guy on either map is half decent, not really.

Nice back-pedal.

uzurpator wrote:
On thermo/crater the only real threat is pushy sera gun com or a push of the entire team.

Are these actually the only real threats or the only threats you can think of?

uzurpator wrote:
On dual gap the distance itsself makes it near impossible.

Then if the distance is the limiting factor the scale of time must be increased and it will still be a 'relatively' quick victory.

uzurpator wrote:
I mean - my 700 rated arse has managed to cock-block two 1000s on thermo in the mid, because that map is so broken. In normal game that could not happen.

And if you pit someone with 700 against two people with 1000 it doesn't mean the latter has 2000, just someone with 1000 and double the resources which he can misspend twice as well.

Statistics: Posted by moonbearonmeth — 17 Apr 2018, 12:27

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-16T19:27:06+02:00

I got to 1100 in gap in like 100 or so games. Then I stagnated there for another 900 games because "the loss was something I couldn't prevent." I put those in quotes because looking back, there was definitely room for me to improve and carry the game. For example, I was doing t3 air rushes without making RAS in 2013 balance. I stopped playing for 2 years because it was annoying as shit to play a 40 minute game and lose because some dude on your team cant make t3 mexes. I came back and had zero problems filling 1k+ games on maps like wonder, hilly, syrtis and farming those to 1600 in another 300 games or so.

Like honestly what is the big deal with higher rating playing in your 700+ lobbies or whatever you want to host. It gives you a chance to see how you compare to them in real time and shows you possible ways to improve. If it's like one of those retarded """1900""" players that only plays lobbies where they are the only slightly decent player, then just kick them and wait for another 1k rated dude.

To address your points directly:
1) It isn't intense lobby sim. Waiting 30 minutes to play a game is expected, intense lobby sim is when you're leaving a host up, go to class for a few hours, and come back to a 2/4 lobby.

2) This won't be fixed until team matchmaker. You got not like the russian and western community divide, but also the various map divides. You also got clan divides with some clans pretty much giving one another rating through private clan games and never really improving against other players.

3) Doesn't really matter if it's hit or miss at your rating. At 700 if you play like a 1700 you can hard carry any team you get from air slot. You should just focus on improving yourself rather than looking at your team as the reason for the loss. Obviously, you will get many games where the loss is due to your team, but just because they are the reason for the loss doesn't mean that there was nothing you could have done at some point to change the pace of the game. For example, I bet you could have won that dual gap by just ignoring navy and going for a 15 minute nuke rush and killing the enemy team with it.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 16 Apr 2018, 19:27

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-16T17:37:54+02:00

@plasma_wolf
That does not happen.

First of all - hosting, say, Wonder rated below 1000 yields an intense lobby sim. Those games never fill. Seriously, I tried. I often watch Heaven's streams and his games, with its 1200+ limt fill _faster_ then those mid-level non-Gap things. I have bever seen a Wonder, Syrtis or Palms with all people below 1000.

Secondly - all the rating below/above limitations achieve is stratifying the community. There are 1200+ games, gap/crater/setons games and thermo with very little movement between those.

Thirdly - team balance is hit and miss. An extreme example: just a few days ago I played a gap game. I was doing second navy. Slightly late, but overall I was doing fine. At minute 32 our south air player still had T2 mexes and was struggling to build anything. I am rated 700. He was rated 600. It is quite common for people with 1000+ rank to game like a blithering retard on dgap and 500 people to be aggresive AF. That is because, at least on that particular map, its volatile nature makes it hard to gain rank. I've been hovering between 700 and 800 for months now, yet my skill did improve significantly.

By the way. We lost because of that 600 guy.

Statistics: Posted by uzurpator — 16 Apr 2018, 17:37

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-16T17:11:18+02:00

All of the problems with high rated people stomping others into the ground can be fixed with a simple thing called team balance. This has nothing to do with the map. A player who's good at dual gap will still win against a team that has no player good at dual gap.

For new players, or lower rated players, hosting all welcome games, or Rating < X games is a good solution.

There are plenty of maps with shorter choke points, or with multiple choke points that still allow different paths. Try hosting a game on Syrtis. That is a map with choke points, but far more interaction than Dual Gap or The Pass. People will join on that map. If you can't find enough lower rated people who will play the map with you, let higher rated people in and ask for advice (build orders, factory placement, tell them to help you judge whether you should attack/not attack or build units/get mex upgrades).

Then you'll quickly be able to join casual Non-Gap games where people actively do stuff, and get in slightly higher rated games while not being forced to play competitively.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 16 Apr 2018, 17:11

Re: Duel Gap Must Die

2018-04-16T16:53:59+02:00

moonbearonmeth wrote:
uzurpator wrote:Getting stomped at minute 7 by a pair of smurfs is not fun and on those maps that simply can't happen.

It can totally happen.

If the mid guy on either map is half decent, not really. On thermo/crater the only real threat is pushy sera gun com or a push of the entire team. On dual gap the distance itsself makes it near impossible. There is some crazy 2300 rated russian guy who joins DGap games and even he could not pull that off.

Unless you are dealing with massive skill difference between both teams.

I mean - my 700 rated arse has managed to cock-block two 1000s on thermo in the mid, because that map is so broken. In normal game that could not happen.

Statistics: Posted by uzurpator — 16 Apr 2018, 16:53