Forged Alliance Forever

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T22:56:37+02:00

final decision:

We won't add a rule about macros or auto clickers. Topic closed.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 09 Mar 2019, 22:56

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T22:55:59+02:00

Steel_Panther wrote:
Only 2 things I will bother responding to:

Did you not just complain about me not responding to some of your points? I simply overread it because I was on mobile and corrected it in another post, but you are now deliberately ignoring points of mine, which is exactly what you also complained about just yesterday.

Steel_Panther wrote:
1: To be clear, I meant efficiency as in how effectively units perform a task.

Yeah, then maybe say that instead of just randomly stating things and then hoping everyone gets what you want to tell us, in your overly convoluted and hard-to-read posts where you firstly quote the entire conversation and then quote everything again, because of reasons.

Steel_Panther wrote:
So manually reclaiming is more efficient than patrol or attack move because the action is faster, and having favorable army engagements is more efficient as well since you get better trades.

Thanks for repeating exactly what you said in your last post and which everyone understands anyway.

Steel_Panther wrote:
So, if your macro does nothing more than save you time, because you could have done the exact same actions manually by clicking rocks to reclaim them (zero "efficiency gain"), that saved time itself can be a huge advantage.

Yeah thanks for repeating once again what half of the people in this thread already said. This also does still not make any sense even with considering your first statement. “Efficiency in absolute terms” means that you take a look at the results of the ENTIRE SCENARIO, and not just what you see fit (which is unit efficiency in your case).

If you mean “Unit efficiency in absolute terms” then say “Unit efficiency in absolute terms” and not “efficiency in absolute terms”. Or don’t complain about people not understanding your point when you yourself formulated it incorrectly.

Steel_Panther wrote:
You can be more efficient in your economy management elsewhere on the map, OR you can micro your units better to engage more efficiently as well. That's why I added on the rest, which helps explain that...

Yeah, and? Who is disagreeing about this? Anyone? Why are you repeating it for the third time now?

Steel_Panther wrote:
So I meant that even if your macro doesn't technically increase your efficiency in performing that task you are using it for, you have the opportunity to gain an efficiency benefit in other areas with the apm you free up.

None of this sentence makes any sense whatsoever. You say that you are not increasing the efficiency of your task, but yet you are still saving time while everything else stays the same or isn’t commented on.
Are you actually serious?
Saving time, means IT IS MORE EFFICIENT. How can you claim the efficiency of your task in not increased, when you simply do it faster and then have more time for other things?
If I make my manual reclaim run in 10 seconds and then in another sandbox in 8 seconds, was I not more efficient in the second run/task, because I completed it faster? Have you thought any of this through?

Steel_Panther wrote:
I am certain I have seen Jagged POV casts on syrtis major where he will patrol engies on the massive rock reclaim fields. Of course attack move is better, but if you might be too busy to move the order for all the different engies reclaiming it makes sense to put a few on patrol to save some time to be able to micro your armies better.

This again does not make sense. Patrol orders require 2 clicks while attack moves use one. And even if you are too busy to manually drag each attack move closer to the reclaim, you are still able to make more attack move orders than just one in the first place, so when the first runs out, you still have some more to spare. And even if that requires to make a couple more clicks, you still don’t need to redo the entire patrol command or stretch it out further, which takes just as much time.

The next thing is, that patrolling engies, will never stop patrolling, unless you tell them to or they get destroyed. This results in the engie basically doing nothing when the reclaim runs out, just like with attack move orders, though idle engies from attack move orders will at least show up as idle in the UI and don’t simply get ignored like patrolling engies would.
Ofc you are going to see it used a couple of times. It’s a mistake most of the time.

Steel_Panther wrote:
ROFL!
As my explanation in point one makes clear, that is the entire point of this discussion! If macros save you time, they give you an advantage!

Thanks for twisting my words again. The statement “But that is neither here nor there” you are discussing, is about the fact that making clear choices where to spend your apm is present in any RTS game and not in just faf.

That is the point and not “spending your apm wisely is important”, we have already talked about that multiple times, and yet you are bringing it up again and again because you simply don’t understand any of my points and then purposefully misinterpret them to push your own paradigm. “ROFL!” indeed.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 09 Mar 2019, 22:55

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T21:51:08+02:00

"Steel_Panther wrote:
Even if you in absolute terms are not increasing efficiency, just saving lots of apm is certainly going to be worth it.

I know what you are trying to express there, though you also have to consider that the apm you spend on which task is also part of the equation. Apm and efficiency are not separate things.

If your efficiency is the same in absolute terms, it means that no matter which setup you use, it turns out to be exactly the same, because the benefits are equal to the disadvantages. I know this doesn’t have much to do with the discussion itself, it’s just a small mistake in your logic there."

Only 2 things I will bother responding to:

1: To be clear, I meant efficiency as in how effectively units perform a task. So manually reclaiming is more efficient than patrol or attack move because the action is faster, and having favorable army engagements is more efficient as well since you get better trades. So, if your macro does nothing more than save you time, because you could have done the exact same actions manually by clicking rocks to reclaim them (zero "efficiency gain"), that saved time itself can be a huge advantage. You can be more efficient in your economy management elsewhere on the map, OR you can micro your units better to engage more efficiently as well. That's why I added on the rest, which helps explain that..."Even pros [that don't use macros] will sometimes use patrol to gather from reclaim fields because it is not worth the apm to do it the "more efficient" way, because if you factor in the opportunity cost of where else you could be spending your time, it is going to be less efficient overall."
So I meant that even if your macro doesn't technically increase your efficiency in performing that task you are using it for, you have the opportunity to gain an efficiency benefit in other areas with the apm you free up.

I am certain I have seen Jagged POV casts on syrtis major where he will patrol engies on the massive rock reclaim fields. Of course attack move is better, but if you might be too busy to move the order for all the different engies reclaiming it makes sense to put a few on patrol to save some time to be able to micro your armies better.

2: "Steel_Panther wrote:
That is a big part of what makes this game special: that it is on such a huge scale that you are FORCED to make choices about where to spend your time and energy.
Pretty sure everyone already knew that. This isn’t reduced to only this game however, this is the case in almost any rts game. But that is neither here nor there."

ROFL!
As my explanation in point one makes clear, that is the entire point of this discussion! If macros save you time, they give you an advantage!

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 09 Mar 2019, 21:51

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T21:44:03+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
maybe you enjoy clicking on every fu*king rock, but some players dont

That is a critical skill in someone's ability to play the game verse not. I don't like having to eco and would rather just have crazy fights, but that would be going to far, now would it not? So why should other people get a free pass from the burden of a task that is not the most enjoyable?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 09 Mar 2019, 21:44

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T21:42:05+02:00

Mephi wrote:
ZeRen wrote:Heaven (Pro player)

1500 and higher are pro's. Don't yer watch gyle?

Statistics: Posted by Endranii — 09 Mar 2019, 21:42

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T20:25:08+02:00

ZeRen wrote:
Heaven (Pro player)

Statistics: Posted by Mephi — 09 Mar 2019, 20:25

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T19:10:16+02:00

when PRO players like UI mod it ok to use it , but when they dont like it it must be banned

this macro doesnt give you that big advantage to make you better player, if I would use all the UI mods and macros any Pro player would beat me just as easily as I would have no UI mod

maybe you enjoy clicking on every fu*king rock, but some players dont

of course only PRO player opinion matter

I personaly dont like area reclaim mod, but there could be something between clicking and area reclaim, so you would select reclaim command from order menu on left side of screen, hold shift and with left mouse button draging cross reclaim field and it would select only rocks that were under reclaim icon while draging

it would work like manual clicking reclaim, without clicking

so you thing macros make player play better? there is something that is far worse and it is dual screen, on one screen you have whole map and on the other you play, this gives you much more advantage then some stupid macro, dual screen give you advantage whole game, macro only when you reclaiming

I wanna ban dual screen

Heaven (Pro player) use it so it ok, right?

now you can hate me...

Statistics: Posted by ZeRen — 09 Mar 2019, 19:10

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T14:20:14+02:00

Hmm as usual people couple their points with tiresome aggression. I'm out

Statistics: Posted by nine2 — 09 Mar 2019, 14:20

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T03:05:48+02:00

Thanks for the insults once again, really adding to your arguments I gotta say. As I said you can believe whatever you want, I don't care. Most of it is just your personal opinion and I can't really comment on that.

To your first point:

Steel_Panther wrote:
I didn't say that you can't queue things. I am aware of the shift key! I said you can't do it WITH THE CLICK OF ONE MACRO! You honestly don't understand my points, that's why you can't understand how I am refuting you, and declare those refutions an "invalid fashion."

Why would you even need a macro for that to begin with? Why are you even talking about this? You simply make a template for the entire air grid and the units which you want to build. It literally takes 2 seconds of your time. I really don't know how a macro of any sort would help with that or why you are bringing this up in the first place because it is simply not feasible. Currently it is incredibly easy already, you can do it with the tools the game gives you. Honestly, I would be surprised if anyone actually managed to make a macro of this sort because you will need to micro each engie at one point in time.

So why even mention it? Is it relevant to the topic?

Steel_Panther wrote:
That is unfortunate. Again, you return to your "it's not a BIG advantage" argument for the starcraft analogy. Just because it is MORE useful in some instances, doesn't mean that a small advantage here or there is fair.

I never returned to any analogy, I simply stated that comparing sc macros with fa macros is a bad idea, because they are completely differently paced games. Stop twisting my words in every sentence you write, anyone can read what I actually wrote.

Steel_Panther wrote:
I think it is especially telling how you have ZERO response for how the game is STILL unbalanced without them...even though that is a completely unrelated [potential/imagined] problem, which by the way, would likely require a separate solution, rather than some indirect and ineffective balancing.

Ye sorry, I somehow forgot to respond to that point, I am sorry. That’s why I will do it now.

With my initial post I wanted to express, that this game is incredibly dependent on outside variables. And I am not even talking about having better hardware, though that point is also to be kept in mind.
In this game it is possible to simply make a ui mod if you are skilled enough, never release it and have a pretty decent advantage over others. There is little if at all monitoring of what is happening, which I can of course understand, because it is almost impossible to do. With this statement I did not want to play down the possible impact which macros can have, I rather wanted to show, that that there are also other major complications out there, which are just as difficult to quantify.
I agree of course, that this is not one of my most compelling arguments, that is why I only mentioned it on a side note.

Steel_Panther wrote:
The point is that if you want to tryhard, you can.

Who said anything differing?

Steel_Panther wrote:
For the record, I think it is a lot more likely that you are a liar than an idiot

Thanks, for the kind words.

Steel_Panther wrote:
and macros actually benefit you rather than hurt you.

Ok, believe what you want.

Steel_Panther wrote:
If you just want to patrol reclaim stuff because it is easier, then you can choose to do that too, but you are forced to deal with reduced efficiency.

Patrolling engies is incredibly bad, attack moving is better most of the time. I have literally never seen a good player patrol engies to reclaim ANYTHING, so yeah, I am just going to assume you meant attack moving them.

I personally agree with this however, this is kind of how the game works. Aggressive macros could pose a problem with this, I have even seen Super or someone make a reclaim mod which resulted in almost 0 trees being broken. I don’t know much about the mod, but I can definitely imagine something similar as a disruptive ui-mod/macro.

- Am I for this kind of use of macros? Hell no, that would be insanely bad.

- Does everyone with a good macro have to use it like this? No.

- Is it easily detectable, after the ban is in place? Yes, its probably obvious to anyone when they watch the replay.

Steel_Panther wrote:
That is a big part of what makes this game special: that it is on such a huge scale that you are FORCED to make choices about where to spend your time and energy.

Pretty sure everyone already knew that. This isn’t reduced to only this game however, this is the case in almost any rts game. But that is neither here nor there.

Steel_Panther wrote:
You get to have the higher efficiency without the effort, which gives you an advantage.

That depends on the macro. With good ones, definitely. As I have said multiple times however, bad macros are not different from just doing it per m1. And if someone has a more advance macro and is abusing it, it is obvious to everyone.

Steel_Panther wrote:
Even if you in absolute terms are not increasing efficiency, just saving lots of apm is certainly going to be worth it.

I know what you are trying to express there, though you also have to consider that the apm you spend on which task is also part of the equation. Apm and efficiency are not separate things.

If your efficiency is the same in absolute terms, it means that no matter which setup you use, it turns out to be exactly the same, because the benefits are equal to the disadvantages. I know this doesn’t have much to do with the discussion itself, it’s just a small mistake in your logic there.

Steel_Panther wrote:
something is clearly wrong

Contrary to popular believe, different individuals can indeed have differing opinions and perceptions of the problem.

Steel_Panther wrote:
You are absolutely hilarious!

Thanks, this is really a nice touch, considering that you basically repeated what several others have already said.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 09 Mar 2019, 03:05

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T02:51:57+02:00

Voodoo wrote:
As Keyser wrote, it takes some time to get used to them. So I will test them for a longer time.

I am confused. Are you simply stating you are testing it or are you actually intending to make a decision on your own after you look into it?

Statistics: Posted by Morax — 09 Mar 2019, 02:51

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-08T23:17:01+02:00

Louvegarde wrote:
Obviously it is VERY QUESTIONABLE that this advantage is only "small" to you, or even negative, if you put up such a huge fight to try to keep it...so yes I'm calling you either a liar, or at the very least an idiot for hurting yourself.

Calm down, this thread has been somewhat civil up to this point, if you guys could keep it up that'd be nice. No need to call him an idiot or a liar just because you disagree with him or can't understand his point of view.

Alright, but it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch of logic to point out something is clearly wrong when he is spamming hundreds of words to support his argument which is essentially: "Guys you can't ban this, it would be super unfair, even though I am actually worse off now! Please don't change it cause i'd like to keep playing worse!"

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 08 Mar 2019, 23:17

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-08T23:09:44+02:00

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Thanks for the insult, im definitely an idiot for playing the game in a way that others don't. I imagine you are definitely not a player, who sometimes does things out of habit instead of executing the most efficient strategy... kappa

And again thanks for your important advice on not using macros, I mean its totally not what I just wrote anyway in my last post.

Also about queuing up 10 min air builds on setons... Thats exactly what you can do already! You can even queue up 30 min air builds. There is simply no hotkey for it which is what the guy was complaining about! So much for "not understanding ehat I said".

I also don't care if you believe it or not, it is simply my experience and not much more. I have already given you a 1000 reasons why I am not using it to gain an advantage. You simply didn't respond to any of them in any valid fashion so I don't know what to tell you at this point considering I have already said it a 1000 times.Believe in what you want it, I don't use it anymore anyway.

Also if you don't see any difference between the use of macros in SC and sup com... well you might want to know that using macros in a fast paced game is of much more use than in slower macro oriented games like faf. Maybe you could apply what you call "logic" to that argument, instead of selling your own opinion as a general rule.

You are absolutely hilarious!

"Also about queuing up 10 min air builds on setons... Thats exactly what you can do already! You can even queue up 30 min air builds. There is simply no hotkey for it which is what the guy was complaining about! So much for "not understanding ehat I said".
I didn't say that you can't queue things. I am aware of the shift key! I said you can't do it WITH THE CLICK OF ONE MACRO! You honestly don't understand my points, that's why you can't understand how I am refuting you, and declare those refutions an "invalid fashion." That is unfortunate. Again, you return to your "it's not a BIG advantage" argument for the starcraft analogy. Just because it is MORE useful in some instances, doesn't mean that a small advantage here or there is fair.

I think it is especially telling how you have ZERO response for how the game is STILL unbalanced without them...even though that is a completely unrelated [potential/imagined] problem, which by the way, would likely require a separate solution, rather than some indirect and ineffective balancing.

"im definitely an idiot for playing the game in a way that others don't. I imagine you are definitely not a player, who sometimes does things out of habit instead of executing the most efficient strategy... kappa"
The point is that if you want to tryhard, you can. For the record, I think it is a lot more likely that you are a liar than an idiot, and macros actually benefit you rather than hurt you. If you just want to patrol reclaim stuff because it is easier, then you can choose to do that too, but you are forced to deal with reduced efficiency. You get rewarded for the apm, as you should. That is a big part of what makes this game special: that it is on such a huge scale that you are FORCED to make choices about where to spend your time and energy. Macros take part of that away. You get to have the higher efficiency without the effort, which gives you an advantage. Even if you in absolute terms are not increasing efficiency, just saving lots of apm is certainly going to be worth it. Even pros [that don't use macros] will sometimes use patrol to gather from reclaim fields because it is not worth the apm to do it the "more efficient" way, because if you factor in the opportunity cost of where else you could be spending your time, it is going to be less efficient overall.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 08 Mar 2019, 23:09

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-08T23:00:44+02:00

Obviously it is VERY QUESTIONABLE that this advantage is only "small" to you, or even negative, if you put up such a huge fight to try to keep it...so yes I'm calling you either a liar, or at the very least an idiot for hurting yourself.

Calm down, this thread has been somewhat civil up to this point, if you guys could keep it up that'd be nice. No need to call him an idiot or a liar just because you disagree with him or can't understand his point of view.

Statistics: Posted by Louvegarde — 08 Mar 2019, 23:00

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-09T03:35:52+02:00

Thanks for the insult, I'm definitely an idiot for playing the game in a way that others don't. I imagine you are definitely not a player, who sometimes does things out of habit instead of executing the most efficient strategy... kappa

And again, thanks for your important advice on not using macros, I mean its totally not what I just wrote anyway in my last post.

Also about queuing up 10 min air builds on setons... That's exactly what you can do already! You can even queue up 30 min air builds. There is simply no hotkey for it which is what the guy was complaining about! So much for "not understanding what I said".

I also don't care if you believe it or not, it is simply my experience and not much more. I have already given you 1000 reasons why I am not using it to gain an advantage. You simply didn't respond to any of them in any valid fashion so I don't know what to tell you at this point considering I have already said it a 1000 times. Believe in what you want it, I don't use it anymore anyway.

Also, if you don't see any difference between the use of macros in SC and sup com... well you might want to know that using macros in a fast paced game is of much more use than in slower macro oriented games like faf. Maybe you could apply what you call "logic" to that argument, instead of selling your own opinion as a general rule.

Statistics: Posted by ____ — 08 Mar 2019, 22:31

Re: macros and auto clickers (cheats or not?)

2019-03-08T21:52:55+02:00

QuestionMarkNoob wrote:
Steel_Panther wrote:Ok, that argument is like saying at the olympics "I only took a little bit of steroids!

Did I not mention multiple times, that the macro I use (one I can live with because I DON'T use it to blatantly cheat), does not give me an advantage at all and is a overall negative? It is a quality of life improvement, but does not make me play better, in fact I play better without it because of the multiple negative effects it has, which I already listed in a couple of posts now. It is not a simple, overall improvement to gameplay. I do it because it is smooth to use and not because it is efficient.

I have already thought about moving away from it because it simply does not have a positive impact on my gameplay, but at the same time, I don't want to see the option gone, to ever come back to using it. I like having more options and ways to play the game, instead of just one which I hope is understandable for you.

Steel_Panther wrote:
And if it only gives you some tiny advantage, why would you be crying so hard about losing them?! lol.

Again, as I have already stated multiple times, because it is simply a quality of life improvement and nothing else. I have been using it for some time now and banning them would result in me having to an extent relearn one part of the game.

Also, nice argument there, immediately assuming I only use it because it gives me an insane advantage in-game. I simply find dragging a macro over some trees better than having to spam m1. It has nothing to do with gaining an advantage for me, I simply find it more enjoyable to do. A lot of people hate having to click on each tree group individually, and yet they do it anyway, because they kinda have to in order to stay competitive. It’s the mechanic I personally don’t like.

I agree that some macros go too far. Or at least that they can be abused (which should be moderated ofc). Even with my first grade-esque I could set up a mega to retreat without turning around indefinitely. Or make hover bombing with a t4 bomber much easier. Or spam 100 move orders in a couple of secs, so the t1 scout never stops moving. Or make a lab dodge a bomber more easily by queuing up a lot of move orders in zig-zag. And I am no programmer it’s just a button on my mouse.

Did you see me use those abilities of my macro? You are not going to find a single replay of me abusing my macro in such a way. Don’t you think that I would use those disruptive abilities, if my only goal was to gain an advantage?

Also: Don’t you think if the impact of reclaim macros was really that large, a lot more people would use it? From what I have seen almost nobody uses macros of any kind, not even the insane tryhards I usually play with.

Steel_Panther wrote:
There doesn't need to be any discussion about it.

A discussion won’t hurt anybody. It is always a good idea to talk about a decision instead of implementing it blindly. Things that might seem natural to you, might not be for other parties.

Steel_Panther wrote:
Put everyone on a perfectly level playing field by disallowing all of them, even the ones that only help a little, because it's still an advantage.

You are never going to have a level playing field, even if you disallowed all of them. Banning those macros that give you any advantage at all is a sensible idea, though there are also macros like my personal one, which do not give me any advantage at all.

Steel_Panther wrote:
Hotkeys and build templates might be somewhat similar but they are kinda in a different league too since they are part of the game itself.

Yes, macros play in a different league. That is why we are having this discussion, and that is why this discussion is needed.

Steel_Panther wrote:
If a macro does the same thing that hotkeys and templates allow you to do, then just use the allowed method!

As someone else has already stated, the game is just limited in some respects, which can only be resolved by macros to an extent. You can’t assign a hotkey to factory queue templates for example. I am not making this up this is literally a couple of posts above yours.

Wow you literally didn't even read or understand what I said. "Also, nice argument there, immediately assuming I only use it because it gives me an insane advantage in-game. I simply find dragging a macro over some trees better than having to spam m1. It has nothing to do with gaining an advantage for me, I simply find it more enjoyable to do." I said that even if it gives you a small advantage, it is an unfair advantage. If you don't even benefit at all and are harmed, then allow some helpful paternalism: you may no longer use macros and it will help you in the long run; YOU ARE WELCOME!

Obviously it is VERY QUESTIONABLE that this advantage is only "small" to you, or even negative, if you put up such a huge fight to try to keep it...so yes I'm calling you either a liar, or at the very least an idiot for hurting yourself.

"A discussion won’t hurt anybody. It is always a good idea to talk about a decision instead of implementing it blindly. Things that might seem natural to you, might not be for other parties." No, because basic logic has already shown us the answer. Macros provide a unique and unfair advantage, therefore we should ban them. You act like starcraft or other RTS games are totally different, just because they have high apm in starcraft...that is literally not an argument. It just means they have extremely competitive players/tryhards.

"You are never going to have a level playing field, even if you disallowed all of them." Can you provide any more than zero explanation why the game will still be inherently unfair? [Besides, some people can click faster, others can use better strategy, aka: are better at playing video games...lol.]

"As someone else has already stated, the game is just limited in some respects, which can only be resolved by macros to an extent. You can’t assign a hotkey to factory queue templates for example. I am not making this up this is literally a couple of posts above yours." What kind of argument is that? Of course there are limitations! I think it is a very good, important limitation that you cannot just click a macro and queue up a ten minute air build on setons. Sorry if you just hate clicking. I don't think anybody enjoys clicking on rocks or trees; it is very tedious. That's just what having reclaim leads to.

Statistics: Posted by Steel_Panther — 08 Mar 2019, 21:52