Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-28T22:02:24+02:00

it's easy : reclaim tree group, if broken it's not so bad.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 28 Jun 2020, 22:02

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-28T21:43:26+02:00

What exactly is the gameplay enhancing property of that change? It's counter intuitive and makes for weird decisions: should I break this treegroup before reclaiming it? ( Computes weird math functions in brain until deciding to not touch the trees at all to keep sanity)

Statistics: Posted by Captcha-Lover — 28 Jun 2020, 21:43

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-28T17:57:45+02:00

Gameplay is generally more important than realism, which is also why the nuke on non t4 air unit interaction change was made.

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 28 Jun 2020, 17:57

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-28T12:21:45+02:00

Tagada wrote:
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2912/files (The Pull about broken props modifier)

...
edit: took me 3 mins to test it, broken trees give around 2x more (when you break a tree it falls down and disappears so it's actually slightly less then 2x depending how many trees you break while breaking the tree group)

Statistics: Posted by Tagada — 28 Jun 2020, 12:21

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-27T21:34:25+02:00

armacham01 wrote:
ThomasHiatt wrote:It is clearly stated in the patch notes of the latest balance patch that broken tree groups have a multiplier of 2 on their resources.

My understanding is that: before this patch, broken tree groups gave far less resources than unbroken tree groups. People could intentionally "break" their opponent's tree groups to get an advantage. This happened a lot in Seton's games.

The patch meant that the trees from broken tree groups would give ALMOST as much resources as an unbroken tree group. So that breaking an opponent's tree groups would have less of an impact on the game. But it doesn't mean that breaking a tree group creates MORE reclaim than if you just reclaim the unbroken group (and it takes longer to reclaim individual trees than 1 big group). So breaking your opponent's trees is still a good thing, but it's less impactful.

Dude before the patch on setons it was the same amount I sandboxes it for every slot to see absolute reclaim values. Now it's apparently changed to spawn ressources out of nothing. Before it was only good to break trees because it's much much muuiuiiiiich slower to reclaim broken trees which binds your engis Bp and sucks on air timings because u need early boost for pgen etc. Get your facts straight arma

Statistics: Posted by Captcha-Lover — 27 Jun 2020, 21:34

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-27T21:25:55+02:00

ThomasHiatt wrote:
It is clearly stated in the patch notes of the latest balance patch that broken tree groups have a multiplier of 2 on their resources.

My understanding is that: before this patch, broken tree groups gave far less resources than unbroken tree groups. People could intentionally "break" their opponent's tree groups to get an advantage. This happened a lot in Seton's games.

The patch meant that the trees from broken tree groups would give ALMOST as much resources as an unbroken tree group. So that breaking an opponent's tree groups would have less of an impact on the game. But it doesn't mean that breaking a tree group creates MORE reclaim than if you just reclaim the unbroken group (and it takes longer to reclaim individual trees than 1 big group). So breaking your opponent's trees is still a good thing, but it's less impactful.

Statistics: Posted by armacham01 — 27 Jun 2020, 21:25

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-27T21:19:17+02:00

What is the reason behind lifting the most basic of physics. You can't create mass nor energy from nothing. A tree is a tree it's state of brokenness shall have no influence on its weight or caloric value I.e. power value

Statistics: Posted by Captcha-Lover — 27 Jun 2020, 21:19

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-27T01:37:01+02:00

It is clearly stated in the patch notes of the latest balance patch that broken tree groups have a multiplier of 2 on their resources.

Statistics: Posted by ThomasHiatt — 27 Jun 2020, 01:37

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-26T22:15:27+02:00

it used to be true but it was fixed in FAF.

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 26 Jun 2020, 22:15

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-26T12:13:30+02:00

Tagada wrote:
1. There is limited number of tree groups used as props for maps and all the props have the same values across all maps (except if they are damaged ofc). I don't know myself the exact values bcs it's better to just grasp the idea and learn it through experience while playing.
2. After you break the tree group then the sum of mass and energy of all the single trees that were comprised in this group is 2x greater then what you would get from reclaiming the tree group. But it's much slower so to get x Energy and mass in y time you would need z more Build power which would cost you more resources.
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2912/files (The Pull about broken props modifier)
3. A safe assumption is 1 pgen per engie reclaiming tree groups (on factory attack move) bcs even tho tree groups yield much more power then that they also provide with mass and you need more power to spend mass. Also you don't wanna underbuild power bcs if you suddenly run out of reclaim/stop reclaiming bcs of overflow ( engies stop reclaiming if your resource bar is ~80% ( I think)/you get raided and engies loos order then you suddenly have no power to even build any pgens.

It is not true that broken tree groups give any more mass or power than grouped ones. I tried it for setons, it's exactly the same amount. It might not be true for other maps or tree groups

Statistics: Posted by Captcha-Lover — 26 Jun 2020, 12:13

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-24T19:35:14+02:00

1. There is limited number of tree groups used as props for maps and all the props have the same values across all maps (except if they are damaged ofc). I don't know myself the exact values bcs it's better to just grasp the idea and learn it through experience while playing.
2. After you break the tree group then the sum of mass and energy of all the single trees that were comprised in this group is 2x greater then what you would get from reclaiming the tree group. But it's much slower so to get x Energy and mass in y time you would need z more Build power which would cost you more resources.
https://github.com/FAForever/fa/pull/2912/files (The Pull about broken props modifier)
3. A safe assumption is 1 pgen per engie reclaiming tree groups (on factory attack move) bcs even tho tree groups yield much more power then that they also provide with mass and you need more power to spend mass. Also you don't wanna underbuild power bcs if you suddenly run out of reclaim/stop reclaiming bcs of overflow ( engies stop reclaiming if your resource bar is ~80% ( I think)/you get raided and engies loos order then you suddenly have no power to even build any pgens.

Statistics: Posted by Tagada — 24 Jun 2020, 19:35

Re: Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-23T09:39:20+02:00

Generally you don't replace your power with trees. You build power according to your expected need. This expectation comes from nothing but experience. Good players just know when they will have mass that needs power ( like big reclaim, fa bunch of T2 mexes finishing) or when they plan for an investment such as gun.

That's the thing about faf, you need to play hundreds of games to get a sense for that. Pro tip: look at your ressource bar every 10 seconds to see how you do on power and mass to understand how your eco is evolving.

Regarding tree groups Vs individual: same in terms of mass or power. But because tree groups are scoopted up in one Pas you need less engis for it and get it faster, which is alot alot alot more efficient due to interested on interested and less upfront investment. On tree maps like setons the difference between top and best players Bo's is literally only on their tree reclaim efficiency, because the rest is mostly the same anyway

Statistics: Posted by Captcha-Lover — 23 Jun 2020, 09:39

Questions on reclaiming trees

2020-06-22T20:59:00+02:00

Hi all,

I wanted to see if someone would be willing to shed some light on the mechanics of tree reclaim. Ultimately I'm trying to learn how many pgens you can cut out of your build order depending on the trees around you, so here goes:

1. While it's straightforward with wrecks, you can't see the reclaim amount (E and M) that trees have. Is it constant, or does it vary by map?
2. How big is the difference between tree groups and individual trees?
3. If you're a top-tier player but are playing a map you don't know well, how do you decide how many pgens you can replace with trees?

Thanks for any pointers!

Statistics: Posted by Treos — 22 Jun 2020, 20:59