Forged Alliance Forever

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-20T10:20:42+02:00

I would love to see anything that actually improves the AI ... but unfortunately most changes that have been made make the AI weaker. I guess this is because the AI is not supported at all when changes are made at present ... Nomads is a good example ie. a new faction but no code changes to support it in AI. So Nomads is by far the worst AI to play against.
roj

Statistics: Posted by AwarE — 20 Apr 2013, 10:20

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T21:57:10+02:00

And if a coder want to learn the AI to build the cheap factories, I'm pretty sure it's entirely possible, and will make the AI way better than before (as they don't assist at all).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 19 Apr 2013, 21:57

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T21:45:58+02:00

Pathogenic wrote:
I will say regarding the frequent changes, though (especially one as big as this), is how will it affect AI games? Will the AI be broken because it cannot adapt to the new changes? Will there be some work to make sure that the AI only build one land T3 HQ and the rest regular T3 land? Will it be programmed to know that if its T3 HQ gets destroyed, it need to build another T3 HQ before it can begin to pump out T3 units? I think this is an important point to consider, as many people play FAF cooperatively against AI, and this change has the potential to break the game for them.

I can speak to this as I have done a bit of testing comparing Sorian AI vs Sorian AI (same faction, non cheating, but I have the map on full reveal) for regular FAF and using the engy mod. I was concerned with whether the AI will be able to go beyond Tech 1.

From all my tests I have used the benchmark as to what time does the AI begin and complete an experimental. I have found that the AI using the engy mod is only delayed about 10 minutes when compared to the AI using just the default FAF. In the eng mod the first experimental shows up at around the 50 to 55 minute mark. In regular FAF it is around the 40 to 45 minute mark (remember I am using non cheating Sorian AI in all my tests). It goes through the tech levels but it only builds HQ, none of the cheaper factories. To compensate for this I recommend maybe increasing the cheat options by 0.1-0.2 from what you play to compensate for the higher upgrade price since it builds HQ's only. As far as how they play, they seem to follow the same strategy whether you use the eng mod or not.

So in closing the eng mod does not put an unnecessary burden on the AI which was my main concern (and if it did, I would have made a mod the nulls the engy mod changes).

Statistics: Posted by The Mak — 19 Apr 2013, 21:45

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T20:55:28+02:00

Yes, I should probably act like EA. Ask you 60 dollars for FA, 5 dollar per season ladder, 10 fee for GW, and ban your account while keeping your money if you said anything.

Just because you *may* pay something doesn't give you the right to decide what I want for FAF.
And paying doesn't allow you that with ANY other game/company.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 19 Apr 2013, 20:55

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T20:41:53+02:00

You see all the problems, the whining? And nobody pays, it's free. The only thing that needs money is the server that Zep is renting (30 € the month or something like that). The money for Galactic War was another thing, Zep needed time to code it and with money you can buy yourself free time. The rest was done by Zep, Raging_squirrel, Thygrrrr, moritz and many many other helping hands...all that for free.

So now imagine a "commercial" FaF.
First nobody would pay for it, or only a tiny little fraction of the playerbase. Like any Free2Play you have 75% of free-users, 24% of players willing to pay a little something and 1% of whales (and this last 1% giving way way way more than the other 99%).
Second it would be the utter trollfest between conservatives, progressives, 3599 worshipers... Even more than now because people have paid for it and have a right to yell
Third it's simply not possible because the game itself is not the property of Zep (I don't even know who owns the publishing rights with the death of THQ).

Statistics: Posted by Kekouse — 19 Apr 2013, 20:41

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T19:58:09+02:00

Firstly, thx for not deleting the previous. I'm somewhat foreign to online communities and thus feel about communicating online alike to communicating offline. Live people talk with something like phone, which leaves some mark in my perception of the process.

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Nobody has to pay for FAF. Nobody.
A lot of people donated for the *server*, but it's not the same thing.

GW is a different thing too.

From position of a ordinary community member, these things are internal nuts and bolts of administering the server running. We have some startup, we have some people willing to support it. I might not (from my point of view) have complete information about all the agreements under the hood of a public service.

Writing an open client and server (which are a few manmonths of developer time in my estimation) is a great thing to do, maybe even, say, honourable. Not taking money from this is a personal choice. I don't mind giving them for it, and many of players think similar. Might be, starting to benefit from FAF will put some stress about people acting not like they are subjectively supposed to, away.

Personally, I would prefer to deal with some commercial service, charging, say 10$-20$ a month, with clear rules, than with some extravagant lonely developer, considering possible to ask people to "shut up" in chat.

This opinion might seem to be "alien" but this is exactly becuase it's straight from the user's side, I write it down FYI.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 19 Apr 2013, 19:58

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T19:38:24+02:00

When the wind of change is blowing , some people build walls and other people build windmills...

I say let's build windmills!!!

Statistics: Posted by PsychoBoB — 19 Apr 2013, 19:38

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T18:30:47+02:00

Nobody has to pay for FAF. Nobody.
A lot of people donated for the *server*, but it's not the same thing.

GW is a different thing too.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 19 Apr 2013, 18:30

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T17:42:07+02:00

Hey folks. I suggest a simple yet decisive pattern.

FAF is an yet another community project importantly giving us good infrastructure to play FA, even somewhat more fixed version. Any such project has real stakeholders, who actually support servers and make things working. There is might be different amount of such stakeholders. More means more weighted decisions and more potential for conflicts. Less means more dependance on personalities.

I long run, any such community can exist only with money. FAF obviously takes donations for this.

So, say, you think a client like FAF worth like X$. And, say, Galactic War worth Y$.

But, say, you worth the effort for GW and think it's amazing and somewhat inspired by the developers (say, Zep).
So, you, say double Y$ sum.

But, you, say, dislike something about FAF, say, methods it's administered and the attitude like this.

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I've said it many, many, many times, I've done FAF to be able to make the game better.
...
Some people said it's a threat, but it's a fact. I won't lie about it. I don't want to continue to work on FAF if it doesn't fit the way I see it.

So you halve the X sum for FAF. And end up investing 1/2*X + 2*Y.
It's simple as that.

The main idea around it is not to forget to reflect what you think in what you pay. This is important for feedback.

Note: I got banned after bringing this in chat, and pretty disappointing way, with insults, so I'm not sure, it's good for you to answer to this.

Statistics: Posted by Sunny — 19 Apr 2013, 17:42

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T15:43:14+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
For me it's a no-brainer. If the change is bad, we revert it. If it's good, we keep it.
I really don't get the people voting no, but, well, it's their right to not like change. But it's not the way I want to do things.

I think its important to keep to this mentality. There is certainly no harm in trying something, evaluating the effect and changing agian or moving back.

Unless someone can argue a case for just leaving things the way they are?

Statistics: Posted by Stin — 19 Apr 2013, 15:43

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T15:39:16+02:00

dstojkov wrote:
Eukanuba wrote:How far do you have to have your head up your backside to think that all of the best FA players would agree unanimously to turn it into a totally different game

No Eukanuba the representation of our best player is only a part of the great player that were on GPG. I will not say they speak in the name of all of them among the best player. If they pretend so then they are liars.

Are you talking about the great players on GPG who got so fed up with v3599 that they left?

We are left with players who not only put up with it, but have put their money where their mouth is in improving it.

Statistics: Posted by Eukanuba — 19 Apr 2013, 15:39

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T15:32:43+02:00

IMHO, I think that the key word is "option".
Several options will led to more people here playing.One of the amazing games Ive observed was a epic 40 x 40 map game only utilizing T1 units a week ago.
.Im an old style modder, since the TA, and ported my TA mod years ago to RTS SPRING. For my surprise, my battlefleet concept - an aero-naval oriented mod had fans and some 1000 downloads .
Niche mods and aproaches are very interesting.(Now Im getting back to mod times, in FA.)
Ze_Pilot et allies MUST to continue the development while they can.

Statistics: Posted by vongratz — 19 Apr 2013, 15:32

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T15:21:28+02:00

Zep, I think regarding the engy change, you should 1) make the change, and 2) tell everyone that the change will remain in place for a set period of time after which folks will be able to vote again on whether to keep it or scrap it, depending on how they like it.

I will say regarding the frequent changes, though (especially one as big as this), is how will it affect AI games? Will the AI be broken because it cannot adapt to the new changes? Will there be some work to make sure that the AI only build one land T3 HQ and the rest regular T3 land? Will it be programmed to know that if its T3 HQ gets destroyed, it need to build another T3 HQ before it can begin to pump out T3 units? I think this is an important point to consider, as many people play FAF cooperatively against AI, and this change has the potential to break the game for them.

Statistics: Posted by Pathogenic — 19 Apr 2013, 15:21

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T14:38:54+02:00

Wakke wrote:
a mod can be created for that (like the 3599 mod)

I really would have a 3599 featured mod because a lot of people is annoying in download it and the installation for people from steam is not the same that the one with the CD. This mod is already been done it would be nice to have it integrated into FAF but for some reason it is not allowed

But more general a mod vault would be a really great feature for FAF and more ladder will definitively stop all strike in our community as everyone can play what he want an contribute to what he like.

For example a diamond ladder blackops ladder a 3599 ladder with of course our current ladder. It could gather so much people instead of people living because they don't like this or that

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 19 Apr 2013, 14:38

Re: open discussion about what happens

2013-04-19T14:33:21+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I really don't get the people voting no, but, well, it's their right to not like change.

I for example dont get why people are looking TV shows on RTL2.

it's a tradeoff, you like, you elect the FDP in our country and get lower taxes but at the same time you get less social caring
so most people simply dont vote
but if you want to vote you can either throw a coin or think what you find better in someway

Statistics: Posted by ColonelSheppard — 19 Apr 2013, 14:33