Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-09T20:02:49+02:00

snipers are not useful right now. andbthey wont get op because they are easy to counter by arty

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 09 May 2013, 20:02

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-09T16:32:04+02:00

If you buff snipers they will soon get OP since they are already very useful right now, they just aren't useful in any situation and if they are used without strategy.

Right now there is hardly anything better to force an enemy ACU to retreat/die, to defend an assault experimental or T2 navy (especially when using the sera ones).

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 09 May 2013, 16:32

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-08T21:23:21+02:00

Veta wrote:
not to be redundant but I think the only legitimate way to test this is with players of similar ratings playing multiple fights within a confined area while alternating which side of the match up they play.

i.e. microtournament style

I think this is a very good idea. This test was very good and usefull, but offcourse has its limitations about predicting real game outcomes. I was really suprised of the good results of the Oothuum. Offcourse the critics about microing makes sense. But i dont think that is a reason not to run these kinds of tests, its just a good criticism.

I alsoo like to know what kind of results you get with microing and more unit diversity. eg. can Oothums effectively rush kiting percies if you combine them with T3 mobile shields. Or, what kind of unit combination do you need do hold of the march of Percies as efficiently as possible, if necessary with micro. I personnally think its better to run a lot of testing instead of fleeing into changing the game. Because its not always the game that needs to be adapted, but alsoo the way in which we play it. I personally think it should be very rewarding if you use unit combinations and micro them well. That adds so much to the game, because its an important factor that makes the game not to just about having the biggest eco and army. At the same time, I find it for example very difficult to hold the shields in the right position and annoying that if you let your shields gaurd a unit, they are not always covering the units as you wish. But maybe thats just me microing bad.

Maybe the reason why we sometimes don't see much unit diversity is because of the difficult task to micro the well. In that case just a lot of percies is very effective, because you know you are not likely to encounter effective unit combinations and easy microing. But that does'nt mean necessarily that we have to change the specs. Maybe there are effective unit combinations and ways in which we need to micro that we didnt have discovered yet or just are underused because of lack of know-how how to micro them in combat based on testing or just lack of practicing. Maybe if we run some more complex test with combinations of units and different styles of micro (kiting, hold ground, rush, ...) we will be surprised how advantages microing can be, just as being suprised how well the Oothum does in a simple head on test. We should look for them before changing things in the game, because changes can sometimes lead to unwanted side effects, eg. the disencouragment of unit combinations and smart microing them.

So i'm in favor of more tests with some micro and more diversity of units. Maybe cast the test on youtube could alsoo help for community evalutation. I'm fully ready to execute some test, if someone cares to join me?

Statistics: Posted by krizzzz — 08 May 2013, 21:23

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T09:41:33+02:00

but you cant kite them, cost should be buffed to percy cost, and they are easily counterable. and i think 12 seconds reload is better so they have an estimated 265 dps
if a percy walks head on to a sniper the sniper will propably ger 2 shots of before the percy 1hits him.
that will even encourage uef players to mix in some titand that can rush the snilers while only taking a single hit.
for the sera sniper i think the second cannon should be removed. it makes things very hard to balance with the aeon sniper. in that case i do t think its that bad for faction diversity if aeon and sera snipers are basically the same

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 05 May 2013, 09:41

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T08:54:58+02:00

3000~3300 damage per shot (each shot in 10~12 sec) would really make them overpowered because of their range (that's about 300 dps with 70 range!)

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 05 May 2013, 08:54

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T08:48:08+02:00

did you even read the posts? no one is complaining about percies. its about making the sniperbots useful as they are supposed to be a counter.
and i would go on 10-12 sec reload and 3000-3300 dmg per shot.
yes you can toggle firemodes, but thats a lot of micro, especially if yoi have a stream of snipers coming out of a factory.
and sending in scouts to get shots off snipers is good play, but with 20 sec reload they would be useless. and in 20 seconds a percy can reach the sniprs and kill them

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 05 May 2013, 08:48

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T08:23:11+02:00

are you guys purposing all races have the same exact units? aeon has mercy.. loyalist better than titans etc. races have advantages in diff ways.

percies arent even close to overpowered... the fact that you do not know how to counter them doesnt make them OP. What is weak about percy you ask?? very weak ROF and very slow speed. Brick is amazing at killing spam ... percy is not. LABS are more efficent than percies in a 1v1 battle for same resources because percy ROF is so slow and overkill on labs.

the funny thing that people all of sudden complain about percies in engy mod is hilarrrrrious

and ofc you spam t3 units... it is the highest tier of units. Even before engy mod I spammed t3 units funny people just realized they are actually better than experimentals. Spider, mega, GC etc useless... yotha and fatboy are the only ones with a competitive advantage on land.

Statistics: Posted by randomfoire — 05 May 2013, 08:23

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T07:57:39+02:00

Golol wrote:
the problem is that if the snipers have a too low fire rate the enemy just needs to send 4-5 scouts and all your 15 snipers blast them away. while they are reloading 15-20 seconds hostile percys can rush in.
so personally every reload time bigger than 10 or 12 is useless for me (direct fire units).

If the UEF player can micro some scouts to go ahead, why can't the sera/aeon player micro some harbs or something to screen the snipers and kill the scouts? And how can percies "rush in" when they are slower than the snipers?

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 05 May 2013, 07:57

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-05T00:20:48+02:00

Rocksteady wrote:
fire cycle: 1 projectile every 45 seconds, 5000 damage total would give it the same dps in both modes

You still get that total crap ~110 DPS. With a dps so low relative to the other bots, there is little good in making them. 5k is too high anyways, 2 could be loaded onto a Continental with a shield and kill a cybran com in one shot. I'm all for a nice frontloaded unit, but at 110dps and such long reload times, you might as well ctrl k them after you shoot, reclaim and make a new one. 10-14 second reload on a 3500-4500 damage shot is around 325 dps and won't will a com in 2 shots, won't kill heavy t3 in 2 shots. Overkill will be an issue and it should be, if someone want to waste all your shots on scouts, that's good play. There is a hold fire command for a reason. Even a toggle fire button might work like on the fire beetle. It just can't stay the same what that it is now.

Ultimatly, I'd like a balance where 10 bricks at the same mass cost can walk in from max range in a line, while snipers are shooting at them in a line and the bricks almost all die except a few 3 or 4 at the end, and they go in and sweep the snipers without any losses. They have to counter the heavy bots without winning unsupported so that phim and aeon have heavy hitters to contend with the other t3. They should have all of the strengths of the percy regarding damage X2.5 and all of the weaknesses of the percies gun X3 coupled with low speed, low health and deployment.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 05 May 2013, 00:20

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T23:34:25+02:00

the problem is that if the snipers have a too low fire rate the enemy just needs to send 4-5 scouts and all your 15 snipers blast them away. while they are reloading 15-20 seconds hostile percys can rush in.
so personally every reload time bigger than 10 or 12 is useless for me (direct fire units).

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 04 May 2013, 23:34

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T22:28:57+02:00

fire cycle: 1 projectile every 45 seconds, 5000 damage total would give it the same dps in both modes

Statistics: Posted by Rocksteady — 04 May 2013, 22:28

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T22:01:20+02:00

pip wrote:
That's the best way to reduce faction diversity and making units like snipers, that are supposed to counter percies and such, completely unnecessary. What t3 needs is properly working snipers, nothing more.

That really would fix the issues that Aeon and Seraphim have, they have 1 subpar t3 unit and 1 useless t3 unit. (unless you count Aeons shield breaker, which is generally pretty useless vs anything but a fatty or a shielded bubble of arty, but an extra niche unit is nice sometimes)

To quote myself from the percy thread:

"Aeon and Phim t3 bots should be a reasonable counter to the uef and cybran bots. That means a significant DPS boost but also a mass cost boost as they would be too cheap otherwise. The DPS should be closer to '300 to 450' due to the need to deploy and long fire cycle. The percy gets a little DPS boost over the brick (which is justified due to the lower fire rate) so why do the snipers have such a low DPS compared to all of the other t3?

This will lead to severe overkilling on most units, but both Phim and Aeon both have a good RoF on tanks and harbies so it will create a mix of all t3 units being used. The sniper bots are totally useless due to low damage relative to the arty, no splash and the same deployment strategy. I think the snipers should be able to go toe to toe with the other t3 units if supported properly, not just be a crap unit that no one builds twice. They should be slower than they are now or have a longer deployment and a fairly large minimum range and poor vision radius, but they really need a damage buff even if it means them being slower than a fueled out Novax :p"

The cybran have fire beetles for dealing with percies, Aeon and Phim really have nothing to counter using ground units that is comparable in mass cost.

One other thing I found odd was that for the phim's toggle fire, the sniper mode with longer range and longer reload had a higher DPS, which shouldn't be the case, it should be lower but more front-loaded for dealing with experimentals. I think you shouldn't be rewarded with more DPS for getting more range.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 04 May 2013, 22:01

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T21:26:49+02:00

the harbinger is fine. it is a step between titan and percie. same for the oothum.
just buff the snipers. obviously they'll be counterable, but if they werent, they'd become too strong.
a mix of harbs and snipers should be the way for an aeon/seraphim to deal with percy spam. put some mobile shields around the snipers and they should be protected from arty for a time. but in that time they should be able to do two to three times the damage they are doing right now

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 04 May 2013, 21:26

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T18:24:53+02:00

There is still plenty of faction diversity.

You have weaker fast bots, and stronger slower ones.

Some have rapid fire, some are frontloaded.

Some can go under water, some cant.

Some can reclaim, etc etc.

I dont think range is a big part of faction diversity.

You can improve snipers sure, but that wont balance out t3 tanks. Snipers are very easy to counter with any sort of arty, fatboy, t3mml etc.

I dont think anyone has an issue with cybran vs uef, it is fairly balanced. Its sera and aeon t3 tanks that need some love.

If one factions t3 tank, completely owns another factions t3 tank, its going to be very difficult to create balance through other units. They at least have to be competitive.

Statistics: Posted by CrazedChariot — 04 May 2013, 18:24

Re: Battle of the T3 Bots!

2013-05-04T17:31:24+02:00

CrazedChariot wrote:
I think just fiddling with the ranges can easily balance the t3 situation.

Percies / Bricks reduced to 32 or so, and maybe Othums at 28, and harbs at 30. There is some range of numbers that will make them all viable.

It will also make t4 more usable. Monkey needs to slightly outrange t3 for it to have any use.

That's the best way to reduce faction diversity and making units like snipers, that are supposed to counter percies and such, completely unnecessary. What t3 needs is properly working snipers, nothing more.

As for countering percies with Cybran, Firebeetles are the key. They can dodge Percies shots if microed and 3 of them can destroy several percies at the same time. They are a very cost effective counter. Sending a mix of Bricks or Loyalist + deceivers so that percies shoot at them first, with loyalists that can stun them and prevent retreat, and you can kill lots of percies with a lot of firebeetles for much less mass. Also, if firebeetles are shot at first (several Percies will fire at one), the overkill damage is huge even if they can destroy one of them, and the rest of the firebeetles will have 4 seconds to get in range. I think this strat needs to be practiced by Cybran players, especially in engy mod.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 04 May 2013, 17:31