Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T09:06:08+02:00

CrayzyNath wrote:
Pause this discussion for one-two weeks. If you still think continentals are OP then, you will have found some good replays to show. Also, it would show that there is a problem which has to be balanced, if people still complain about it with valid replays.
There is no need to rush something.

This.

I think everything has been said at least 2 times.

Some one can re-open a topic if he has (many) replays showing the OP-ness of the Continental.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 10 May 2013, 09:06

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T09:02:35+02:00

Astrofoo wrote:
This will be known later as the Continental Debacle.

But yes, no need to hurry. We have time.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 10 May 2013, 09:02

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T04:28:52+02:00

I haven't posted in this topic yet but I agree with Crazynath. Give this some time. Wait it out a bit. It could be we learn some awesome way to counter them that totally nullifies their existence. Or maybe they truly are OP. Let's just wait for awhile and see where this journey takes us. This will be known later as the Continental Debacle.

Statistics: Posted by Astrofoo — 10 May 2013, 04:28

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T04:05:11+02:00

Correct me if I'm wrong:
You say continentals are OP. Yet, you have to seek a replay where this is shown.
Most of the time, the enemy player reacted wrong to the continentals or didn't react at all.
Yes, the numbers look really good. They have decent AA and a ground attack.They also have good HP and a shield.
They move and turn pretty fast. And they can transport units.
Well... that's basically what you expect from a heavy transporter.
Since this discussion is up, players start using them. With moderate to good success as it seems.
But that's always the case when a new strategy becomes public. It takes some time to find a way to play against it and find the right counter. Give it some time, it will 'balance' itself. Shouldn't be too hard, since most of the obvious counters already work but aren't really used yet (strange, don't you think?).
Pause this discussion for one-two weeks. If you still think continentals are OP then, you will have found some good replays to show. Also, it would show that there is a problem which has to be balanced, if people still complain about it with valid replays.
There is no need to rush something.

Statistics: Posted by CrayzyNath — 10 May 2013, 04:05

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T02:55:34+02:00

Yes and one T1 mobile artillery beats an ACU if the artillery is microed and the ACU isn't...
That said it is way easier to micro the flak than the transporter and while correctly microed flak can basically beat infinite amounts of T3 transporters even the best T3 transporter micro won't beat infinite amounts of flak... it won't even beat a decent amount of flak.

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 10 May 2013, 02:55

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T01:03:54+02:00

In my memory it was ~20 flak. The transports were being microed, flak wasn't. I could be misremembering, don't have access to faf now. Maybe you can find the replay via the search function? There was definitely much more mass in transports than in flak, but it was still surprising how effective the transports could handle it.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 10 May 2013, 01:03

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T00:43:35+02:00

Against a lot of flak? Sorry but this is completely impossible. Without micro you can beat 20 transports with 10-20 flak, with micro you can probably beat 20 transports with 3 flak...

Edit:
Just tested, 3 mobile flak are definitely enough vs. 20 transports (a bit of an overkill, though)

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 10 May 2013, 00:43

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T00:21:00+02:00

Another replay where T3 transports were used in interesting ways was a while ago with BC_blackheart, BC_tiep, SEKELFRAER and 3 others on X6. That shows also that you can kill loads of T2 flak with them (and a chicken).

The problem seems to be mostly that they have good AA plus moderate anti ground. Nerfing the anti ground or removing it will probably solve these issues because if you just use them for AA you will lose (and loading with mechmarines is easily countered with flak), while this doesn't affect their true purpose (transporting). Or maybe nerf AA and anti ground and reduce cost a little bit, then they become just transports instead of things you can fight with.

Statistics: Posted by Cantor — 10 May 2013, 00:21

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-10T00:15:53+02:00

I made some tests on Seton's... what really kills you is the power drain for keeping the shields up (as expected). They are even more useless against ground than I thought, though. The speed of the projectiles is so slow that it can't hit anything that moves at all (probably not even a battleship). The only thing they can kill are mass extractors. Due to speed and their strong anti air that is somewhat useful.

I have yet to try it against someone good, but I am pretty sure that the energy drain and the high mass cost combined with the UEF lack of double ras will devastate me.

The only possible way to victory I can see is a combination of T2 mobile flak and T3 transports...

Statistics: Posted by SC-Account — 10 May 2013, 00:15

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T23:31:59+02:00

Voodoo wrote:
I have also a feeling that you can build them way too fast, so yes maybe it's good to change the build time too.

Your feeling is correct, it's backed up by the numbers. Numbers never lie. The BuildTime, I think, needs a small nerf to shunt things back in favour of the responding player.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 09 May 2013, 23:31

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T20:12:30+02:00

Why nerf a unit for a tactic when I have yet to see a game where a high level player used continental spam similar to how they would use restorer spam. It may look impressive, but when compared with mass cost of its counters (ASF, flak), it is not an effective strategy at all.

I would think building a few T3 gunships would be a far more sensible use of mass, if you want gunships instead of strat bombers. Consider this, the Broadsword does 333 dps, whereas The continental does a measely 60 dps versus ground. Plus the shots it fires are super slow and can be dodged but forget about that for now. It only takes 9 Broadswords to do the same ground damage as 50 Continentals (3000 dps). The cost in mass of those 9 Broadswords is 15120, the cost for 50 Continentals is 70000, a difference of 54880 mass, enough for 156 ASFs. When I get home, perhaps I will test 156 ASFs versus 50 continentals, but I am guessing the results will not be pretty for the Continentals. Gunships can attack transports with their ground weapon too, but I will not even include the T3 gunship vs T3 transport in order to be generous to theory that Continental spam is somehow a problem and needs nerfing.

I will also test 42 continentals vs 49 restorers (equivalent mass cost) just for laughs. Since Continentals fly faster than restorers, I'll also test it versus fewer restorers until I find some sort of equivalency point where it it more or less a draw between the two sides.

Statistics: Posted by Pathogenic — 09 May 2013, 20:12

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T19:00:04+02:00

I have also a feeling that you can build them way too fast, so yes maybe it's good to change the build time too.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 09 May 2013, 19:00

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T18:58:14+02:00

If people are still whining about something they could counter by playing better, by all means, up the build time so they aren't as spammable.
Will be annoying though; will make it take a lot longer to get out the continentals for their actual purpose; drops.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 09 May 2013, 18:58

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T18:55:50+02:00

Tell you what, I've been looking in more detail. If it turns out that this is a problem (Or a few think it's a problem, which can be just as bad), I propose the following for the next balance period:

Shield Upkeep Cost - Increased to 300 (From 250)
Build Time - Increased to 9000 (From 5250)

The reason for the build time change is that it has come to my attention that one possible major factor in the perceived trouble surrounding this unit is that while 1 Continental = 4 ASFs Masswise, 1 Continental = 2 ASFs BuildTimewise. In other words, with equal buildpower and ample economy, you sink more mass into Continentals than ASFs in a given time. This is a problem, as it becomes tricky to match them mass for mass. What you end up with is closer to 50% the mass in ASFs for a given time, which should still win, but it makes the battle a LOT closer than it would otherwise be. I don't want to put it to 12000 as that seems a bit drastic, but 9000 shifts things firmly into the ASF player's favour. This change also should have a negligible affect on using it as a transport, as if building a single one you can concentrate buildpower to get it out faster.

Thoughts?

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 09 May 2013, 18:55

Re: Exploiting T3 Transports

2013-05-09T18:35:10+02:00

ColonelSheppard you haven't said anything useful in the whole thread. You are just writting to troll people here and you are laughing about their replays.
I would like that you stop please, it's realy annoying and not helpful.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 09 May 2013, 18:35