Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-07T13:48:36+02:00

Gunseng wrote:
I think everyone is getting a little too flamed about this discussion. It's just an idea I thought people would like to discuss, or maybe post some of their own ideas.

So far that's exactly what has happened - people are discussing it and posting their own ideas. I don't see any flaming going on...?

Gunseng wrote:
And besides if you really think that Zep isn't going to make any balance changes after 3609 then why are you even bothering to post on this thread?

No one has said that. Ze_PilOt himself has not said that. We know that there will most likely be balance changes once a pipeline is setup so that said changes will be thoroughly tested and vetted before becoming an official patch. That last bolded bit seems to be the sticking point. I'll repeat him one more time:

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I said that there is no list of required change for 3610, or any balance fix planned for 3610.

That doesn't mean there will be none, it means that 3609 is not even released, and nothing is ready for balance change (like, a balance team) yet.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=384&start=10 (emphasis mine)

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 07 Dec 2011, 13:48

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-07T01:17:13+02:00

I think everyone is getting a little too flamed about this discussion. It's just an idea I thought people would like to discuss, or maybe post some of their own ideas. And besides if you really think that Zep isn't going to make any balance changes after 3609 then why are you even bothering to post on this thread?

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 07 Dec 2011, 01:17

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T22:29:48+02:00

uberge3k wrote:
Why are we trying to put the cart before the horse?

My point exactly.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 06 Dec 2011, 22:29

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T17:08:00+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I said that there is no list of required change for 3610, or any balance fix planned for 3610.

That doesn't mean there will be none, it means that 3609 is not even released, and nothing is ready for balance change (like, a balance team) yet.

Source: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=384&start=10

I'm honestly not sure what else to say here. Ze_PilOt has already stated how the balancing will be done. There currently is no balance team and there are currently no planned balance changes.

Why are we trying to put the cart before the horse?

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 06 Dec 2011, 17:08

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T16:23:44+02:00

And that's a good thing for now, in my eyes.

And it's not that two people identify and design all the changes - but two and ultimately one (ZeP) are responsible for them.

FAF could die if a particularly crooked balance patch were to be released and then not fixed right.

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 06 Dec 2011, 16:23

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T14:40:10+02:00

thygrrr wrote:
I suggest MOVING THE f*** AWAY from these public balance discussions (read up on the term 'vocal minority') and let FunkOff do his work and having ZePilot sign off every change (it's his project) while keeping the amount of actual changes low, but interesting.

I've stopped making adjustments to the balance test mod until 3609 is released. Also, zep hasn't indicated in any way that he thinks any specific balance changes are necessary... So things are stagnant now.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 06 Dec 2011, 14:40

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T13:46:09+02:00

thygrrr wrote:
We need objective balancing and not community balancing

And the 2 people you quoted are the only ones who should do it in ur opinion ?
If so this is a pretty stupid approach since NO one can claim to have 100% knowledge of the game. So it's obvious opinions and in game experiences have to be confronted.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 06 Dec 2011, 13:46

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-07T01:18:34+02:00

I suggest MOVING THE f*** AWAY from these public balance discussions (read up on the term 'vocal minority') and let FunkOff do his work and having ZePilot sign off every change (it's his project) while keeping the amount of actual changes low, but interesting.

I believe you cannot have frozen balance in a game this complex, and mild but frequent changes keep the game alive longer.

What hurts the game are endless flamewars on balance issues by self-proclaimed experts who base all of their assumptions on a tiny sample size of games. (I'd say anything below 1000 games as random faction with the current 3608 build is too small a sample size, meaning no single person can possibly make any precise statements based on their own experience).

Instead, ALL the experience needs to be gathered and viewed objectively to make fair precise changes that aren't knee-jerk reactions of a bunch of butthurt crybabies who want their favourite units buffed more and their loathed ones nerfed more. Knee-jerk is any change based on a small sample size, OR is not backed up with empirical evidence or a statistical argument speaking for it. Both need to be fulfilled for a change to qualify as sound.

And by crybabies I mean all of us, deal with it. We need objective balancing and not community balancing

Statistics: Posted by thygrrr — 06 Dec 2011, 12:43

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-06T09:16:41+02:00

Gunseng, you have here the reason why your proposal won't work. Many players, like Ubergeek, don't want the game to change in one way or the other. At least, he plays 3603, and not 3599.

If you want improvements over time, just trust Pilot's approach. He said he'll do it once the game is bug free and the lobby is fully functionnal. You can still post in the balance forums to bring up some thoughts about what you think would improve the game, of course.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 06 Dec 2011, 09:16

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-04T23:18:13+02:00

Well ultimately it would be the mods that decide whether or not the unit is changed, which should be made up of the balance team. I'm just looking for ways to get the FaF community more actively involved in a less chaotic way. I should of probably stated the goal of the system I suggested which would be:

To have ORGANIZED, FAIR, and most importantly INTELLIGENT debates on balance changes for the balance team to consider.

The balance ideas thread is insanely chaotic. I just think we need something to point people in a direction that will actually get results.

I agree that the game is very well balanced and stated that, and the tweaking only being after all bugs are fixed (like the resto field bug ) is the best way to go. I do think the community should be actively involved in any changes after all the fixes though.

The swapping between units being nerfed/buffed constantly is a problem with the game I took the system from but that's why I said tweaks, the game goes a little too far and ends up having to change everything all the time. I believe with Forged Alliance we can get a "perfect" balance if everyone is patient enough. We definitely have a determined community it's just about organization.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 04 Dec 2011, 23:18

Re: Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-04T22:39:28+02:00

If done, that would end up with balance being decided by whomever spends the most time posting in forums. The vast majority (actually, the entirety) of the top players don't even read the forums.

While a nice idea, Pilot has already stated how the balancing will be done here (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=172) and here (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2). There's also the precedent what with the polls being moved to the "poll madness" subforum. Not to mention the name of the balance forum itself (FA Balance Ideas) with the subtitle "REMINDER : This is NOT a community balance forum. The thread ideas won't be used in a patch.".

In reality, there isn't a single unit which is so broken that the game requires changes to be made immediately. While everyone has their own personal idea of how FA should be balanced, that's what mods are for - official balancing should be done very, very slowly and carefully, especially while FAF is still young. At the moment there is nothing on the scale of, say, 3599 Restorers, and even 3599 Restorers were only conclusively found to be OP after much testing and discussion by a very large pool of players. We simply don't have that - all we have is a few people coming up with lots of ideas.

As Ze_PilOt said several times, if tried to balance by the debates in the forums, he would have to simultaneously buff and nerf aeon, buff and nerf sera, buff and nerf air, randomly swap around 10 units...

Lastly, the above is the only practical way to do this. Look at the threads balance forum, and especially the old polls in the poll madness forum. It's impossible to get consensus on much of anything. This speaks to two facts:

1) There is currently nothing that is so universally accepted as something that absolutely must be changed. In other words, the balance is currently pretty great!
2) Since the remaining "small" changes that are left (eg, making small changes to gunships, mercies or bombers) could go either way and won't make a massive difference to the game (again, on the same scale of, for example, restorers), it will be nearly impossible to get consensus as each person will have their own very strong personal opinion on it. No amount of debating in the forums will change anyone's opinion or have anyone come to any epiphanies about it. Again, T2 gunships are a good example of this - some think they're slightly OP, some think they're fine, some don't care... it mostly comes down to personal preference on how each person thinks gunships should behave.

this has been another post by Captain Killjoy McNofun, speaking for the silent majority of FA players who don't want massive changes without proper oversight and testing... :p

Statistics: Posted by uberge3k — 04 Dec 2011, 22:39

Balance Team/System Suggestion

2011-12-04T22:22:45+02:00

Hello good people of FaF!

There's a lot of talk going on in the balance category so I thought I'd make a post about a balance team/system

Now I'm borrowing this system from another game and adapting as necessary but here are my thoughts:

Every month we pick a TOTAL of 1-4 units(or upgrades or structures but max of 4 all together) and under a new category (Balance Changes of the Month) each with their separate threads that people can post under. Each will have a poll (but won't take much weight unless dramatic differences in the votes) and then the debating begins for the entire month. No name calling or diverting/expanding the subject if you're not on topic your post will be deleted.

Now there has to be moderators to check up on the threads daily to help steer people towards a general agreement (not to sway favor but to either change the unit or not to change the unit.) After a general agreement is made then the balance team can take over.

Now I don't mean for this post to suggest that the game is horribly unbalanced. It is very well done thanks to everyone who contributed to FaF (especially Ze_PilOt). However, there are a few things that could be "tweaked" to make the game more enjoyable for ALL factions without giving up faction diversity. By "tweaked" I mean the smallest step possible to make the game more enjoyable for ALL factions.

FaF's community is growing and I think we should have community driven changes.

Statistics: Posted by Gunseng — 04 Dec 2011, 22:22