Forged Alliance Forever

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T20:15:11+02:00

You should be able to do any bugfixing without redistributing others' materials. There is literally no reason to redistribute anyone else's stuff now you are aware of how this can be done, other than spite. Unless you plan to put this mod out for Steam users... Which is pointless, as there aren't any :p

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2014, 20:15

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T20:09:40+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
If you do it my way, the end result will be that your mod will be hundreds of times smaller than it would otherwise be (Talking about filesize) because you will be able to do the whole thing in lua. Since you won't need to mess around hosting unit models, textures etc, you might even be able to do everything you want to in only 3 or 4 files, if properly organised.

It also means that when people come to download yours, it comes very quickly, and when the mod forces them to download all the dependencies, if they already have them they won't have to download a second copy. In the case of our larger mods, that can save hundreds of MB of hard disk space, and many minutes of pre-game downloading. This is important if you want your project to appeal to the masses.

Reasonable suggestion - I like it

But I'll try to do it both ways probably anyway: Like this I can provide "patches" for people who only want one mod at the same time and truth is I trip over one bug after another (not working shield here, not firing cannon there). Not to mention things that makes me LOL instantly like "Regeegade" Tank instead of "Renegade" tank or "Super Ultra Turbo Assault Heavy Mech" stuff in description (as I wrote somewhere else, most modders don't realise that GPG made great system for unit type naming in which every word indicates what skills unit have). There's lots of it. And If I can bugfix those while doing my merging thing I'll do even more good.

Sometimes I wonder if modders keep track of their own work at all or just write everything in notepad and at some point glue it together blindly. I for example have very rigoristic system of working and documenting my own work, so I never loose track of things and I can easily come back to old stuff, even after few years.

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 20:09

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:46:02+02:00

What Ice Dreamer said. In addition, you should think about the distribution method now, because it will be quite hard to extract the changes you made from the all-in-one mod later to build a patch mod out of it.
It is probably also much easier to react to changes in depended mods that way since you have a clear separation of your and their changes.

Statistics: Posted by burnstreet — 19 Feb 2014, 19:46

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:40:19+02:00

It won't. The hurts here run too deep to be overcome by sheer quality. There's more than that to my post, though.

If you do it my way, the end result will be that your mod will be hundreds of times smaller than it would otherwise be (Talking about filesize) because you will be able to do the whole thing in lua. Since you won't need to mess around hosting unit models, textures etc, you might even be able to do everything you want to in only 3 or 4 files, if properly organised.

It also means that when people come to download yours, it comes very quickly, and when the mod forces them to download all the dependencies, if they already have them they won't have to download a second copy. In the case of our larger mods, that can save hundreds of MB of hard disk space, and many minutes of pre-game downloading. This is important if you want your project to appeal to the masses.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2014, 19:40

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:33:45+02:00

IceDreamer wrote:
If you take the work these modders have done, bundle it together, and then make it so that when people download your mod, they download all the materials, then we have a big problem. A few people have tried to do this before, and the community backlash was enormous. However (And please take this as a kind hint), if you make a mod which requires the original mods to be enabled, seperately, and then modifies the units/balance/bugs whatever, then I don't think anyone will object. To clarify, you cannot redistribute the original work yourself. One way you could do this is to script your mod so that, when you try and play it on FAF, it pops up a message saying "This mod requires X/Y/Z to be enabled. Would you like to download them?", which can be done. This is the correct way of going about this if you don't want to ask people's permission.

One of the many ways to do this my way without anyone's consent.
Yes that's an option I already considered but it's too soon to think about distribution when I just started working on merging at all. It's like thinking of buying a car 10 years before You are eligible for driving card!
And I strongly believe that when I have something to show (which is delayed every time I'm answering in such stupid discussions) this something will be good enough to ensure getting consent from authors in the first place.

Anyway thanks for advice.

The only problem I have right now is Resin and his Fanclub spamming in my every topic in which I try to either learn something or even help other people by solving their problems. What he does is stalking and if we talk about law stalking is breaking the law.

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 19:33

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:26:34+02:00

For the sake of fairness, necxelos, allow me to make a comparison to point you in the right direction.

As PilOt has said, the IP owners of SupCom are aware of FAF and are fine with it. Why? Because it is not a redistribution, it requires the original content to be bought and paid for from the original sources. If Pilot had tried to bundle the files for SupCom and FA together and redistribute them so people could play the game on FAF without buying the games, then THQ, SE, and Wargaming would have shut this place down faster than you could blink.

If you take the work these modders have done, bundle it together, and then make it so that when people download your mod, they download all the materials, then we have a big problem. A few people have tried to do this before, and the community backlash was enormous. However (And please take this as a kind hint), if you make a mod which requires the original mods to be enabled, seperately, and then modifies the units/balance/bugs whatever, then I don't think anyone will object. To clarify, you cannot redistribute the original work yourself. One way you could do this is to script your mod so that, when you try and play it on FAF, it pops up a message saying "This mod requires X/Y/Z to be enabled. Would you like to download them?", which can be done. This is the correct way of going about this if you don't want to ask people's permission.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2014, 19:26

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:28:36+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
No what I'm doing so far is "I make merging for myself which, noone can forbid me, and IF I MANAGE to make something good I'll show this to original authors and ask if they like it and allow me to release it!"

Good, now we're getting somewhere.

We're getting nowhere because I wrote this at the very beginning, nothing changed, You're just blind.
But I guess that's what happens when people read selectively - That's why there should be an auto-ban for responding to someone's post without actually reading it whole.

P.S. As for my attitude - It changed because I'm pissed as much as it's possible and I have every right to.

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 19:24

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:11:08+02:00

necxelos wrote:
I say it one last time before I smash someone's face. I'M NOT MAKING "MY OWN MOD"!! I'm merging existing mods and I don't take any credit for the content! I fucking take eggs, yeast, sugar and flour and make a fucking cake out of it! This doesn't change the fact that ingredients was produced by someone else nor do I claim that I breed the eggs myself or destilate glucose from my own blood. If You don't see a fucking difference go and buy glasses or go back to school. And Yes NOW I'M PISSED!

Two things:

1. You're just proving my point on your attitude. You're being condescending. I'm very capable spotting differences, thank you! It's part of my work.
2. Whether or not it is your own mod or just a collection of things doesn't matter when you want to publish it.

No what I'm doing so far is "I make merging for myself which, noone can forbid me, and IF I MANAGE to make something good I'll show this to original authors and ask if they like it and allow me to release it!"

Good, now we're getting somewhere.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 19 Feb 2014, 19:11

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T19:02:36+02:00

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
It is not a modder's job to bring fun to the people, neither is it a game developer's job to do so.

If they decide to create a game and/or mod it is their job. You either bring people fun or You failed, as simple as that.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Therefore, going ahead and using those mods for your own mod, in whichever way you do and however time-consuming that may be, is showing complete disrespect to the authors of other mods.

I say it one last time before I smash someone's face. I'M NOT MAKING "MY OWN MOD"!! I'm merging existing mods and I don't take any credit for the content! I fucking take eggs, yeast, sugar and flour and make a fucking cake out of it! This doesn't change the fact that ingredients was produced by someone else nor do I claim that I breed the eggs myself or destilate glucose from my own blood. If You don't see a fucking difference go and buy glasses or go back to school. And Yes NOW I'M PISSED!

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
You can ask the authors if they're willing to let you do this and if you do that right away, the response won't be as hostile as Resin's response currently is. What you've done so far is "I'm going to do this, I'm going to go ahead and if anyone has a problem with it, it's theirs to solve. If someone wants me not to use their mod, they're selfish idiots and people of the past".

No what I'm doing so far is "I make merging for myself which, noone can forbid me, and IF I MANAGE to make something good I'll show this to original authors and ask if they like it and allow me to release it!". I could also use a dozens of loopholes in law to release without consent or even take over someone's work for good but this is immoral and I'm not gonna do it (one was even suggested in this topic which only proves how easy it is).

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Resin should be banned by now for aggressive speech, harassment, stalking, offtopicking every time and general attitude

Then so should you.

The difference is I'm teached how to balance on the edge of good manners and taste, while he is just a rude kid with several issues. If You don't see the difference - check some text selection algorithms used on many forums that detect aggresive speech.

Plasma_Wolf wrote:
Also: this legal/permission issue is hardly an off-topic thing. It's best sorted out beforehand.

No it's not because If i decide to make it for myself only (or my personal friends) like Krapugnak I don't need any permissions. I need them ONLY if/when I want to release it. That is the difference.

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 19:02

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T18:46:10+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Do you know your alphabet? Well, that's how.

aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
is before
abaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
and also before
aaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaab

PilOt you fucking troll lmao

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 19 Feb 2014, 18:46

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T18:36:25+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Do you know your alphabet? Well, that's how.
aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
is before
abaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
and also before
aaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaab

Lol I'm not dumb! -.-

So the whole UID is basically one big priority "number". So hard to tell it straightforward?
I asked dozens of times if it's the whole UID or just a part of it. And yes there are dozens of coding methods out there, most of them code many informations in one code and You need to know which part is connected to which information - let the personal ID be the example, where there is Your birth date encoded, mixed with birthplace and number of births the same day - all in one number (probably some tax number included too). And "-" in the code would suggest that as well.

Anyway thanks.

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 18:36

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T17:38:10+02:00

necxelos wrote:
Also what the likes of Resin are forgetting, is that our job as modders is to bring fun to the people (general playing community). This is the priority. His long gone glory or anyone's glory for that matter isn't important.

I'm not going into the discussion about someone's glory being important or not, but someone's opinion or right of his own work certainly is. The author of the mod can do whatever the hell he likes with it. If he wants to remove the mod, he can. We're very lucky that Zep has made this FAF project and were equally lucky that both GPG and THQ aren't doing anything against it. Likewise, we're very lucky to have several nice mods and people who are willing to put their [b]time in making them work. It is not a modder's job to bring fun to the people, neither is it a game developer's job to do so. It's a game developer's idea to make a game and it's the gaming community's reaction that will tell you if the game developer has brought fun to the community. It's exactly the same case for mod authors.

Therefore, going ahead and using those mods for your own mod, in whichever way you do and however time-consuming that may be, is showing complete disrespect to the authors of other mods. The reaction of the community to this mod (which we obviously have to wait for) is completely irrelevant to this issue.

You can ask the authors if they're willing to let you do this and if you do that right away, the response won't be as hostile as Resin's response currently is. What you've done so far is "I'm going to do this, I'm going to go ahead and if anyone has a problem with it, it's theirs to solve. If someone wants me not to use their mod, they're selfish idiots and people of the past"

Now that is a selfish and a condescending attitude. An attitude that is only going to work people up against you. If you take the first next opportunity to ask people for their permission, then you immediately know what you can and what you cannot do. If you don't get permission, you can think of it as selfish if you like - I don't think it is, but it's a moot point - but you have to live with it.

This also serves a very practical purpose. If you're already including things you have to take out because others don't want you to use it, then you're doing work for nothing.

Resin should be banned by now for aggressive speech, harassment, stalking, offtopicking every time and general attitude

Then so should you.

Also: this legal/permission issue is hardly an off-topic thing. It's best sorted out beforehand.

Statistics: Posted by Plasma_Wolf — 19 Feb 2014, 17:38

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T17:17:10+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
Do you know your alphabet? Well, that's how.

aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
is before
abaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
and also before
aaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaab

OMG i had to laugh on seeing that.

Resin

Statistics: Posted by Resin_Smoker — 19 Feb 2014, 17:17

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T17:10:17+02:00

Do you know your alphabet? Well, that's how.

aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
is before
abaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa
and also before
aaaa-aaaaa-aaaaa-aaaab

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 19 Feb 2014, 17:10

Re: How to force FAF to have the last word?

2014-02-19T16:52:02+02:00

UID's being alpha-numeric doesn't explain which part of it encodes priority... 1st symbol? 2nd? Or maybe whole UID? Or maybe last 2 symbols?

Statistics: Posted by necxelos — 19 Feb 2014, 16:52