Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-14T08:44:24+02:00

This is my suggestion for fixing the ladder interface.

have two buttons below the launch buttons. The first button consists of map selection and works as current. The second button is a player count selection. Which will enable the player to select, or deselect 1v1, 2v2, 3v3 and 4v4 options. Such that a player will search for any possible matchup sizes within their selected range.

When there is a low number of players on ladder it will launch mostly 1v1 games. But when there are more players it will launch ranked team games. I would very much like to see a revival in ranked team matches and, I believe, adding this functionality will increase it's usage.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 14 Dec 2014, 08:44

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T15:04:52+02:00

I have seen utterly no change. In fact it's slightly better.

Admittedly - we inhabit two different time zones and I'm not playing during Euro time. So maybe during the early hours you have seen a decline, and yet on my end I'm seeing more ranked.

But I just don 't see any evidence to support that conclusion either way.

Ah btw about that sticking someone's tongue in inappropriate places, that is also not true at all.

That wasn't directed at you specifically, and yes I probably could've worded that more gently.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 11 Dec 2014, 15:04

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T14:14:02+02:00

Ah btw about that sticking someone's tongue in inappropriate places, that is also not true at all.
Being in a trainer team still, the only guy that asked me for a lesson was HiroProtagonist like 2 months ago or so... And Zock's lessons lost popularity recently too. Imo competitive ladder has never been as dead as now in FAF.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 11 Dec 2014, 14:14

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T13:35:34+02:00

Same for you Lextoc, please go back to the topic of the thread. Your post has nothing to do with it and it's not helpful.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 11 Dec 2014, 13:35

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T13:30:30+02:00

Just to cheer this thread up a little bit a small off-topic

Anaryl wrote:
I like that you get offended that I can type faster than you. It took me twenty minutes to write that post, and I did other stuff like make a cup of tea and smoke a couple of cigarettes. If you can't handle the pace, get out of the fast lane.

I don't mean to brag or anything but I can type at a 120 words per minute

Statistics: Posted by lextoc — 11 Dec 2014, 13:30

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T13:27:05+02:00

Mad-Mozart and Anaryl that goes too far. I will start deleting your posts if you can't speak to each other in a civil fashion. Furthermore if you want to talk about something then use the private message function. This is a forum that means you can post your thoughts about the topic and it shouldn't be discussion between two players.

Statistics: Posted by Voodoo — 11 Dec 2014, 13:27

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T12:53:00+02:00

Neutrino wrote:
Firstly my initial impression is that T1 scout planes are far too easily countered. All it takes is one or two T1 AAA and a T1 scout plane is toast. Dealing with that requires either swamping the defences with loads of planes at once and/or microing all the way around the edge of a hostile base, which (if the base is large enough) still won't even tell you what's in the interior.
...
A related scouting issue (which I think has already been mentioned here) is that scouting reclaim is fairly pointless if you can't identify what the reclaim is worth.

Well i don't see anything wrong with balance of t1 scout planes, but nevertheless it has almost nothing to do with ladder. But what was suggested and is worked on is the idea that the civilian buildings are revealed at the start of the game.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 11 Dec 2014, 12:53

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T12:48:25+02:00

Crotalus wrote:
1. Enable the ladder-map selection bugfix
2. Remove bugged maps from the pool
3. Overhaul the ladder display to give it more appeal, show something more than just rating, W / L.
4. Get rid of the divisions? Instead show a change +/- position value for how much a player has climbed on the ladder and have lists / sort function for this value.
5. Decaying ratings (increasing deviation) for inactive players

4. Maybe divisions are not that wrong, but i would organize them more like sport leagues. With one league per country / world region (Europe, Asia, world league. At the moment i dont know exactly how it could work, but i would like to see every six month or so something like
- a world champion
- a champion for every world region
- a champion for every country

That implies that if the world champion comes from north korea he is also asian champion and korean champion.

And for the two of you, that want to have the last word, please stop offending each other. The wiser head gives in. You will get a lollipop from me! You just have to come to me and get it directly.

Statistics: Posted by RoLa — 11 Dec 2014, 12:48

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T12:43:53+02:00

Crotalus wrote:
1. Enable the ladder-map selection bugfix
2. Remove bugged maps from the pool
3. Overhaul the ladder display to give it more appeal, show something more than just rating, W / L.
4. Get rid of the divisions? Instead show a change +/- position value for how much a player has climbed on the ladder and have lists / sort function for this value.
5. Decaying ratings (increasing deviation) for inactive players

+1

I haven't played any ladder matches yet so I don't have a strong view on whether a small map pool or large map pool would be better, but it seems clear that there is little consensus in this thread beyond fixing any bugs, removing any obviously crap or broken maps and introducing some sort of rating decay to offset the effect of inactivity at the top of the ladder. So let's do that.

I also support the idea though that good scouting should be a sufficient tool to deal with any difficulties that a particular map might throw up. However I think there are a couple of issues in this regard.

Firstly my initial impression is that T1 scout planes are far too easily countered. All it takes is one or two T1 AAA and a T1 scout plane is toast. Dealing with that requires either swamping the defences with loads of planes at once and/or microing all the way around the edge of a hostile base, which (if the base is large enough) still won't even tell you what's in the interior.

To my mind this is a case of using the correct platform for the job but it still failing to get the job done and requiring excessive micro to boot, and for me this doesn't seem to be in the spirit of SupCom. Imo one or two T1 AAA shouldn't be able to take out a T1 scout so easily and if you want to prevent T1 scout planes from overflying your base you should need either an interceptor screen or T2 AAA.

A related scouting issue (which I think has already been mentioned here) is that scouting reclaim is fairly pointless if you can't identify what the reclaim is worth. On Theta Passage for example there are civilian structures in the middle which look like radar systems and T2 power generators but when you reclaim them you get 4 mass, when individual rocks on the same map give 10 mass. That's just borked. Imo reclaim items should give an amount of mass that can be intuitively inferred from the type of item it is, otherwise there is no point scouting it at all and someone familiar with that map will have an uncounterable advantage over someone who is not.

Statistics: Posted by Neutrino — 11 Dec 2014, 12:43

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T11:58:42+02:00

I like that you get offended that I can type faster than you. It took me twenty minutes to write that post, and I did other stuff like make a cup of tea and smoke a couple of cigarettes. If you can't handle the pace, get out of the fast lane.

Maybe should instead stop for a bit and think why they dont play?

No, that would require generalising, and frankly, guessing. Many people stop playing for a wide variety of reasons. I stopped playing this year because I was a juror in a 3 month criminal trial. Somebody else might have gotten a hot girlfriend. I fail to see how any adjustments to ladder will change anything in this context.

He makes a subjective statement

You want a medal?

Then bashes TA for making one too. Haha, seriously?

Um. No. I disputed that he is allowed to treat a subjective statement as objective fact. It was a nice try though.

I dont know about you guys, but i personally cant take Anaryl seriously here. Of all the people in this discussion he is contributing the least to it just raging around and shaking air. And having an extremely inflated ego he doesnt listen to anything or anyone. So yeah go on hate and bash me for skipping any constructive discussion and moving straight to the offensive shit but i dont feel sorry about it at all.

I believe 'projecting' is the applicable term here.

So here he questions the whole ladder concept here of climbing your way up to top. Also not even trying to be objective and not giving a single Scheiße about other people's opinion (e.g. do low rated guys really want to play top 10 on a constant basis?)

That's not true at all. You are making a common mistake that because I don't care your opinion, you assume I don't care about anyone's opinion. It's not, I just don't like you.

Where do I question rising to the top? You're the one who doesn't fall down the ladder when you lose. You think your position on the ladder should be protected, even if you abstain for six months. How is that fair?

PS his point seems to be stop hearing opinions of people who dont play the ladder - cause they dont deserve a say. Which i find wrong and purely selfish, elitist, stupid, add your own word. Instead should focus on why they dont play and more importantly why they quit playing ladder.

You can express opinions - I just don't think they deserve priority.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 11 Dec 2014, 11:58

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T11:42:22+02:00

Oh come on. The only reason i made that comment (and yes i did read the post lol) is because Anaryl writes 20 paragraphs filled with elitist, blatantly subjective and arrogant bullshit such as

Who's fault is that? When the higest ranking players playing ladder are rated 1600ish - how is anybody supposed to move up when you guys don't play?

Maybe should instead stop for a bit and think why they dont play?

or

1. There are many more players on FAF than there are players on the ladder.

There are a lot more people who play backyard cricket than those who play International Tests - what is your point?

Yes very constructive. And TA has a really good point here.

It's also really boring. Some of us don't think that investing 100 hours every week for a rating gain of 200 points is a worthwhile investment. We play for fun.

He makes a subjective statement

You base a lot of things on yourself. You can't extrapolate your opinion to everyone else. If I only have twenty minutes before I have to walk out the door, I don't start a game of SupCom. Who does that?

Then bashes TA for making one too. Haha, seriously?

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe only being able to be matched with ten other people on the whole damn planet (well technically, the whole damn universe) is the reason why top players can't seem to find a game? Maybe if we increase the brackets so top 50 players face a greater number of challengers below them. Zep used to say "Well, maybe top rated players don't want to play lower rated players" - but that logic was flawed. If you're at the top, you should be forced to defend your position, not be protected. How are you going to generate new pros if you never play them? Right now, the only way to break into the top 50 is to find a top 20 player, stick your tongue up their butthole and have them train you. Again, this is strong evidence that the highest rated players deliberately cultivate a monopoly.

So here he questions the whole ladder concept here of climbing your way up to top. Also not even trying to be objective and not giving a single Scheiße about other people's opinion (e.g. do low rated guys really want to play top 10 on a constant basis?)

I dont know about you guys, but i personally cant take Anaryl seriously here. Of all the people in this discussion he is contributing the least to it just raging around and shaking air. And having an extremely inflated ego he doesnt listen to anything or anyone. So yeah go on hate and bash me for skipping any constructive discussion and moving straight to the offensive shit but i dont feel sorry about it at all.

PS his point seems to be stop hearing opinions of people who dont play the ladder - cause they dont deserve a say. Which i find wrong and purely selfish, elitist, stupid, add your own word. Instead should focus on why they dont play and more importantly why they quit playing ladder.

Statistics: Posted by Mad`Mozart — 11 Dec 2014, 11:42

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T11:46:52+02:00

1. Enable the ladder-map selection bugfix
2. Remove bugged maps from the pool
3. Overhaul the ladder display to give it more appeal, show something more than just rating, W / L.
4. Get rid of the divisions? Instead show a change +/- position value for how much a player has climbed on the ladder and have lists / sort function for this value.
5. Decaying ratings (increasing deviation) for inactive players

Statistics: Posted by Crotalus — 11 Dec 2014, 11:41

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T11:03:50+02:00

I think you could get a lot of mileage out of just clearing some of the crappy maps from the ladder. Just played Kazam. Apparently there are civs engaging you as soon as you warp. That's bad.

The thing is, I've been playing ladder for a very long time. The players who I remember like JeanLu and Carlitos who have always been around - those players are still around. The true veterans of the ladder just keep playing despite whatever ridiculous crap you throw at us like factory mod, first bomber, doesn't matter, they suck it up. There are more too, but these two deserve a bit of a shoutout for their dedication to ladder. Those are the players you should be catering to. Those are the kind of players I represent.

We shouldn't bother catering to the blow ins. Heaps of players like to come onto the scene and announce how good they are, and in six months, they're gone. If we look at players complaining in this thread, you can see that heaps of them just don't play. I get there might be some valid reasons for that - I can understand why ToeJams doesn't like the quality of maps in rotation, for example.

But ultimately there are lots of players who suck it up and keep playing. Those players do not deserve the finger, especially from the popularity contest/pecking order crowd.

Statistics: Posted by Anaryl — 11 Dec 2014, 11:03

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T10:56:17+02:00

Ladder is much better than GPG ladder ever has been.People actually play ladder and play it a lot.
So, the real question is if they would play it more.
With that said, I don't think a particular system would actually
improve it more, since the primary reason the vast majority of
players avoid it is the anxiety of losing and the stress of competitiveness.
I will keep saying this, no matter how odd and disturbing is to some
people.
Now, a balanced population of maps(either constant or changing by an algorithm) is what we want and what
we more or less have. There are some maps though that still managed to infiltrate ladder and are kindly put
hilarious, like the one with the "acid" sea that does not allow you to put shipyards or units in it, and of course
the "voodoo" maps of the recent past. Managing to exclude those maps would be a small but good first step.
From there on we should have 5x5 10x10 and some 20x20 maps and that's it. I dont' think 40x40 and 81x81
offer something substantial in judging a player's skill; they only manage to hurt players' nerves as you usually
must endure 20 mins of inactivity before any serious confrontation happens

Statistics: Posted by prodromos — 11 Dec 2014, 10:56

Re: Please do something about the ladder

2014-12-11T10:42:43+02:00

Anaryl wrote:
I admire your optimism RoLa but frankly MM is just a jerk. I think very few people actually find his company remotely tolerable. Most players only defer to him because he is a semi decent player. Personally, I don't expect anything more from him.

Then stop doing the EXACT same thing as him goddamnit. No attacks, just decent dicussion. I think mods should just MAKE everyone discuss in a civilized manner. I'm sad because you made a pretty good post before this one (regardless of my opinion of it). I even agree with a lot you said.

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 11 Dec 2014, 10:42