Forged Alliance Forever

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T19:13:26+02:00

And how is your RAS preset without adjacency mod going? Weren't you working on one?

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 27 Jan 2015, 19:13

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T18:45:52+02:00

Beams VS SCUs is fixed and ready to roll. It's part of the hitbox and target bone changes. The change is waiting on the balance team to OK it for much more thorough testing in the real world, there may be consequences I was unable to find in my sandbox testing.

Statistics: Posted by IceDreamer — 27 Jan 2015, 18:45

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T16:30:52+02:00

Well, units don't shoot the head, ok. But there are a lot of issues with hitting SCUs- beam doesn't hit, shells go through SCUs, ect. The speed and size makes it harder to hit when microed. Any talks about balance should be after these issues are solved.

Cybran SCUs don't beat exp mass for mass. Yes they would kill spider with luck of staying out of range(because of very close speed) and with beam issue abuse, but that's a spider, by the time you can afford mass sufficient amount of SCUs(power cost limits this very well), the spider itself is already a mass gift compare to anything else. GC probably acts better.

I don't see cybran SCU being better than UEF in SCU vs SCU. It's practicly 19k hp with 300dps vs 28k hp with 325 dps(real dps 750-regen 425).

The seraphim omni upgrade not giving enough range to OC as it supposed to is also an issue that has to be solved before balance talks and tests, unless it was intentional change somewhere in the past.

May be SCUs are too efficient for mass cost. But take power cost and micro investments into account and it's completely different story.

The reason i wouldn't like speaking about SCU balance is unused and obselite upgrades. At first aeon SCU requires complete upgrades rework. RAS preset discussion, unused upgrades, unused presets, ect.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 27 Jan 2015, 16:30

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T15:22:49+02:00

Comparing SCUs with exp is pretty much useless because even t2 ones act effectively mass for mass against t4.

this answer is good. Do you often see people spam T2 unit to kill exp ? no. Why ?
because of the enormous BP require first, then because of pathfinding issue. It's already nearly mpossible to fight exp with loyalist and othuums. And with harbinger it's pretty dawn hard too.
Yes you can use T2 unit (specially illshavo) to add dps in exp vs exp battle. I don't think it's viable in T2 vs exp battle.

Comparing SCUs with exp is pretty much useless because even t2 ones act effectively mass for mass against t4. Comparing sCUs with t3 is also pointless: different unit combinations act differently against SCUs, so you can get far better outcome with mixing more snipers, absolvers, shields, t3 arty, t3 raid bots, than you would get from single unit spam. Micro on SCUs isn't a good point either - t3 units can also be microed not to be hit by AOE and prevent OC sometimes.

sniper and arty are easilly dodgeable. the number require are epic high too. i'm pretty sure that uef player can get 1 fatty along with his sACU, and be able to denie all those long range weapon.
you can't micro T3 unitto dodge against sACU.

The ability to hit SCUs is an issue though: uit try to shoot in the head it seems and it becomes easy to dodge anything. If it gets fixed, you will see how much worse microed SCUs do against t3 and t4.

I didn't see that the shoot were targetting head. It was shooting at chest. Well let's fix those (targetting head (if they really shoot the head and beam weapon) and see what result of it.

I'm not sure experimental wins against cybran sACU.
Absorber are good against uef and sera sACU it's true.
uef sACU is good against cybran sACU, but with lot of micro you reduce this advantage. cybran sACU is easier to micro than uef one i feel like.
cybran and uef sACU can kite sera shield/regen/OC sACU, and it's 2v1 (due to mass cost). if you go range upgrade on sera sACU, you gain like 5 range on your OC, so you have 30 range for OC. So kitting on 5 more range is difficult, but then sera sACU doesn't have shield. it's pretty much the same mass cost wise, so you will have to do 2v1. And cybran/uef sACU can dodge OC.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 27 Jan 2015, 15:22

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T12:24:32+02:00

hmm what about
decreas build power for sacu on 20, and move differences on enginering suit upgrade?
would prevent spaming sams, and epick reclaim in a while. And are probably on same side where is one of dmg upgrade
who would have master builder sacu only make enginering upgrade that give him + 80build power insted of 45. but would not have bouth. epick builder and epick fighter

??

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 27 Jan 2015, 12:24

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T03:23:33+02:00

Comparing SCUs with exp is pretty much useless because even t2 ones act effectively mass for mass against t4. Comparing sCUs with t3 is also pointless: different unit combinations act differently against SCUs, so you can get far better outcome with mixing more snipers, absolvers, shields, t3 arty, t3 raid bots, than you would get from single unit spam. Micro on SCUs isn't a good point either - t3 units can also be microed not to be hit by AOE and prevent OC sometimes.

Eventually i think there are only 2 SCUs that can compite with t3 mass for mass. Cybran SCU, countered by focusing enough percivals(covered by shields) to one-shot them one by one, building experimental or own UEF/Sera SCU; And UEF SCU which can only be countered by Sera SCU, percivals under 52k SCU shield or absolver usage.

Sera SCU eventually loses to t3 due to micro investments for overcharging and microing from shots. It can get range for overcharging, but it is bugged: you need to make OC order and when you are in range, move it back, so it sends OC sometimes(i got told about that, didn't test myself);trading the omni upgrade to get range for shield is also questionable decigion for me.

The ability to hit SCUs is an issue though: uit try to shoot in the head it seems and it becomes easy to dodge anything. If it gets fixed, you will see how much worse microed SCUs do against t3 and t4. Balancing SCUs would not even be needed after that due to micro not affecting that much as now. But than SCUs would still need own upgrade topic - there is a lot of obselite and unused stuff.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 27 Jan 2015, 03:23

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-27T01:16:48+02:00

ok i won't talk about wreck here only about sACU :

fast review :
rambo sACU cybran : 5 800 mass
ranbo uef : 5 900 mass
rambo aeon : 5 900 mass
rambo sera : 10 550 mass

sera oc can be dodge by other sacu. But is knowed to be good against experimental (OC miss only sometime). OC range does not have the buff of the range upgrade. (400 dps, 29 500 health, 265 hp/s, 25k shield, OC)
rambo aeon is knowed to be the weaker of rambo sACU. but it's still a good unit. (300 dps, 40 range, 3.5 aoe, 35k shield) (not sure if this is the 1st one or the second shield that is use in rambo preset)
cybran one has epic regen, stun ability on T3 unit. (300 dps, 35 range, 425 hp/s)
Uef one has good shield, epic damage (750 dps, 35 range, 2.5 radius, 32k shield)

This been said :
i will talk about uef and cybran sACU, because those are the one i know the most.

sACU >>>>>>>>> T3 bot (percy/bricks). When you MICRO ! (dodge : right-left) you can lose 0 sACU and kill lot of percy.
sACU > GC and ML because those 2 exps miss them a LOT (More the GC than the ML).
sACU > Ytothas (the worst exp imo), you can dodge lot of shot, and you will kill it pretty fast.
sACU > Mega. You can dodge some of mega shot, and mega doesn't even do full damage vs not micro sACU.
sACU vs Fatty. it's little bit tricky here. Because usually you won't be able to have the fatty in range. So sACU aren't the counter of fatty. BUT fatty does nearly 0 damage to cybran sACU (didn't try vs uef sACU). If you micro a little bit your sACU you will have full health always. I played a game were there was 4 fatty firing on me, and with some micro my sACU wasn't taking too much damage. It allow me to keep fatty away from my base, while i'm building scathis.

against T3 gunship, you can spam shield and sam. Depends how much T3 gunship are on your sACU and you much sACU you have in the area to help spam sam and shield, but i think T3 gunship aren't that good as counter.
agaisnt strat, you can dodge aeon really easily. the other it's little bit harder, but spam T3 sam (don't stack them) and shield is good enough to defend.
The only hard counter that i found was to get 26 strat bomber (cybran one) and to one shot sACU. Usually the right-left micro end up into stacking sACU. You can really do good job of it, and snipe 5-6 sACU in one run. Use strike and back micro on your strat to keep them safe from opponent asf.

Air experimental : i think those can be good counter, but each time i used them, they got snipe by asf, even if i was able to win air.

I don't know if using sam cybran sACU, is that much good to defend other sACU. But i feel like it's safer way to prevent your sACU from being air snipe. (OR get some T3 mAA a little behind, or go T3 sam creep)

Then you have to add to that the fact that they can reclaim suuuuuuuuper fast experiment that they just killed. And that they left no wrecks when they die.

Way i see how game will be played if people knows how to use sACU more : go for 1 exp maybe, then go for sACU spam. You can defend pretty much every thing. while you go that go for a T3 static arty (or scathis). defend front with sACU, reclaim what they send you, Build T3 arty faster (or scathis), win game.

Drawback of using sACU : need constant micro to keep them safe.
They are now best land unit and versatil thanks to their engeneer ability.

NERF pls.

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 27 Jan 2015, 01:16

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-25T20:48:59+02:00

-_V_- & _VODKA_ oversimplify the diversity issue imho. Actually, I had opened a long thread about the (if u consider it as such) issue of mixing naval units on Setons.
One of the reasons I get very frustrated when seeing SACUs coming in against t4 is that sometimes they dodge most of the incoming fire. Not sure if it supposed to be that way. Here is an example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0Z6lONS-Go&t=45m55s

Statistics: Posted by --- — 25 Jan 2015, 20:48

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-24T08:22:57+02:00

Read better ? Lol

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 24 Jan 2015, 08:22

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-23T12:45:42+02:00

I think I've read all the current balance topics and I don't see anyone suggesting that all units should be made the same. Quite the opposite in fact, it seems to me that the one thing people are agreed on is that they like the unit diversity SupCom offers.

Statistics: Posted by Neutrino — 23 Jan 2015, 12:45

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-23T12:39:28+02:00

_VODKA_ wrote:
If some people would have their way this game would be full of exactly equal units and effects, something like PA.

That's hardly new. And a quick read of the "balance" topics reveals that. sadly.

Statistics: Posted by -_V_- — 23 Jan 2015, 12:39

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-23T12:20:47+02:00

Yeah, don't introduce wrecks for SACU or ACU. It's one of the things that add to the variety between T4 and SACU. If some people would have their way this game would be full of exactly equal units and effects, something like PA.

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 23 Jan 2015, 12:20

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-22T21:00:57+02:00

i can agree that SACUS are pretty strong but I'd rather we leave the wreaks out of the story just because if they did leave a wreak it would make the explosion completely underwhelming (I say this from experience : PA)

Statistics: Posted by tatsu — 22 Jan 2015, 21:00

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-22T13:06:28+02:00

I definitely like the idea of not giving mass and even blowing up some wrecks at the place it dies.

But considering upgrades don't count into wrecks... it's a marginal role.

Statistics: Posted by E8400-CV — 22 Jan 2015, 13:06

Re: SACUs and mass wrecks

2015-01-22T12:51:58+02:00

Prehaps upgrades' costs wouldn't count into wreck, like in aeon SCU sacrificial system. So probably getting wrecks to "survive" SCU mini nuke explosion would give only 2k mass... out of 10k seraphim SCU for example. I dislike this idea. Do we have textures for SCUs with all setups of upgrades? And that may need time investments for somebody to code. And since i don't see issue with balance or unit design, i would be against this idea.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 22 Jan 2015, 12:51