Forged Alliance Forever

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-08-01T11:16:29+02:00

I read a week or so ago that you added these balance changes:

- Reverted the holo to jammer for UEF.
- Changed ACU veterancy :
Level 1 = 20,
Level 2 = 50,
Level 3 = 90,
Level 4 = 140,
Level 5 = 200

- New stealth/intel behavior :
- If you attack-order an unit and lose radar or line of sight of it, you won't follow it under the FoW anymore.
- If you lose radar coverage over an unit, all units firing at it will stop immediately (previously, was when the unit was searching better target - from 1 seconds up to 5).
- If you use a bomber on a target and lose track of it, the order is automatically replaced by a ground-attack.
!!! THIS NEED A LOT OF TESTING FOR DEBUGGING !!!

I assumed they were removed since they don't appear in game. But maybe they were just tested in the balance mod. Sorry for the confusion.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 01 Aug 2012, 11:16

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-08-01T10:46:16+02:00

What ? Removed when ?
I think there were never added, and that is a mistake, because it's in the repository.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 01 Aug 2012, 10:46

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-08-01T10:41:31+02:00

I'm a bit sad to see that ACU custom veterancy requirements have already been removed. I thought it worked pretty well to give a chance to t2 units.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 01 Aug 2012, 10:41

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T23:21:26+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
We were at the same conclusion considering overcharge by the way. These value seems fine, I will try to push a 3616 balance mod tonight using these values.

Great! I think they are worth testing.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 23:21

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T17:27:31+02:00

If they are enough players to test both ideas, it's quite easy to implement one, try it, implement the other, try it, and see what is the better one.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Jul 2012, 17:27

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T17:12:30+02:00

pip, your concerns are valid, but there's no way the same XP value for a spy plane and a battleship could possibly be balanced. 200 mass = 9000 mass?

XP should be tied to mass value, both in needed XP for leveling, and for worth. A unit should probably need to kill its own value to gain 1 level.

A T1 tank worth 2 should gain a vet level after killing another T1 tank, 2 lesser T1 units, or an higher tech level unit.
A T2 tank worth 5 should gain a vet level killing another T2 tank, or 3 T1 tanks, or 5 lesser T1 units, or anything worth more than itself.
A T3 siege bot should gain a vet level killing 3 T2 tanks, 5 T1 tanks, or something more costly than itself.
A Galactic Collossus would need to kill 550 lesser T1 units, or 225 T1 tanks, or 110 T2 tanks, or 55 T3 siege bots, or several ACUs, or the better part of a base to gain vet. This makes more sense, because a GC killing 550 xp in stuff (units and structures included), using my system, is more difficult than getting a T1 tank to kill another T1 tank, but far more rewarding. And that's what we need.

ACUs cost 18,000, but should probably have their mass cost reduced to something like 5,000, so they need 100 points to level, and are worth 100 points.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 11 Jul 2012, 17:12

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T16:56:24+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
pip wrote:You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.

I think you're making a good case that we shouldn't determine XP value on tech level alone. There's just too much difference within techs to make them all worth the same... is land scout worth the same as a tank? Is a monkeylord worth the same as a CZAR? Should a pillar, costing 200 mass, be worth as much as frigates, costing 1300 mass?

IMO, maybe point value should just be mass cost/50, rounded up. Some sample values:
T1 scout/mob AA/mob arty = 1
T1 tank/engie = 2
T2 tank = 4
T2 Frigate = 6
T3 Loyalist/titan = 10
T3 heavy bot = 26
GC = 550 (effectively 100 ore less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Scathis = 1260 (effectively 100 or less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Battleship = 180 (effectively 100, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)

These values seem more fair, right?
I do think, however, that we need to change the vet level requirements. 20 for an ACU, with all these new vets, is simply too low. ACU should have 50 per level, at least. Light experimentals requiring 100 seems fair, as does 200 or more for heavy experimentals.

It's tempting to further distinguish units, but I think it'll be too complicated. It seems already quite complicated to have proper xp values for each tech level, I don't think it's worth the effort to create new categories.

Another problem is that your custom values will be a big buff to higher tier units compared to lower ones, because only higher tier units will really benefit from higher xp values : lower ones will never benefit fully from killing higher tier units, they will gain just one level which doesn't mean much compared to the unit they just killed.
Taking your example, would it be fair that a Titan gains only one level (9xp required) for killing a Brick(26xp worth), whereas the Brick will gain also one level for killing a Titan? I don't think it would be fair, so this would lead to adjust or at least check each and every unit veterancy thresholds in the game to make sure your values are fair and consistant. That's not worth the effort IMO.

One good point behind the 6xp value for any t3 unit, beside limiting too fast veterancy growth for ACU and Exp, is that a t2 regular unit will gain a vet level for killing a t3 one without "xp overkill" (if you see what I mean), and it won't be too easy for stronger t3 units to farm weaker t3 units either : a Brick fighting Titans won't reach level 5 by just killing 5 Titans, but 10. This is more reasonable.

To sum it up, I think Zep system can be kept simple and intuitive with the values I posted previously, without need to further hassle ourselves in a complete, complex new system.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 16:56

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T16:40:03+02:00

pip wrote:
You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.

I think you're making a good case that we shouldn't determine XP value on tech level alone. There's just too much difference within techs to make them all worth the same... is land scout worth the same as a tank? Is a monkeylord worth the same as a CZAR? Should a pillar, costing 200 mass, be worth as much as frigates, costing 1300 mass?

IMO, maybe point value should just be mass cost/50, rounded up. Some sample values:
T1 scout/mob AA/mob arty = 1
T1 tank/engie = 2
T2 tank = 4
T2 Frigate = 6
T3 Loyalist/titan = 10
T3 heavy bot = 26
GC = 550 (effectively 100 ore less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Scathis = 1260 (effectively 100 or less, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)
Battleship = 180 (effectively 100, because nothing will ever give more than 1 vet level)

These values seem more fair, right?
I do think, however, that we need to change the vet level requirements. 20 for an ACU, with all these new vets, is simply too low. ACU should have 50 per level, at least. Light experimentals requiring 100 seems fair, as does 200 or more for heavy experimentals.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 11 Jul 2012, 16:40

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T16:12:29+02:00

In another thread people were saying that T3 units (apart from the assault bots) were not very good. I don't know if that's true or not, but I think it might be interesting if certain units were average on initial stats but have the special characteristic of gaining vet very quickly.

The sniper bots and T3 mobile arty (and T2 MMLs?) seem like good candidates for such a mechanic. What if their vet requirements were pretty low, and their vet bonuses were quite good? (is it possible to do per-unit vet values?)

It seems interesting because you then have a "powerful unit", that can't be effectively spammed, since each of them need a certain amount of enemies to reach its true potential. Whereas in most RTSes, when you have an OP unit, you want to spam it as much as you can.

This adds more micro to the game, though, if you have to cultivate your army to make sure you dont waste any kills. It would be interesting to see if this adds some opportunities for tactical skill or if it just becomes a silly chore.

Statistics: Posted by AdmiralZeech — 11 Jul 2012, 16:12

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T16:57:42+02:00

FunkOff wrote:
Thank you for putting in this work, pip. It is very enlightening.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

I'll add my opinion that this should be tweaked to 1,3,9,100. Should a monkeylord really have to kill 2 GCs to get vet? And xps are worth much more than 10 T3 units, so it works.

But yeah, zep, listen to pip. He knows what he's talking about.

You're welcome! I hope it can help Zep tweak his system in a balanced way and content the whiners or just make them forget about it.
The problem with 1 / 3 / 9 / 100 is not in the units you mention but other ones:

- if light t3 units for instance are worth 9, it is too easy for experimentals to gain veterancy :
spy planes and ASF, loyalists and Titans, sniper bots, are not hard to kill and can be found in numbers. It allows experimentals but also ACU to gain veterancy too fast, thus buffing t4 and ACU a lot against t3 and I don't think that's necessary. Even with 6xp for t3 units, t4 is buffed against t3.
- if light t3 units for instance are worth 9, it is too easy for more powerful t3 untis to gain veterancy:
it buffs a lot Bricks, Percival, Othuums and Harbingers against Titans and Loyalist because each killed Titan for instance will bring 1 vet level to a Brick. This is huge! It's an indirect big buff to these high end t3 units and a nerf to the lighter ones which don't have a lot of HP to begin with (and I don't think the Titans need an indirect nerf).
A brick should need at least to kill 2 t3 units to kill one vet. Compare with t1 units : they don't vet for killing just one of their kind!

- Experimentals worth 100 means you believe that killing one of its own kind should bring an instant vet level (whereas before, it was worth only 1 kill). It is never the case in all supcom units (see t1). For sure, it should definitely boost the killing Exp, but not necessarily give it an instant vet level, especially if it's a high end experimental.

You mention the Monkeylord having to kill two GC to gain one veterancy, but it's rather the other way around that is imbalanced : one GC gaining one instant veterancy for 1 monkeylord, and another one just after if they arrive slightly delayed / have to manoeuver? Why should it be so easy? Again, a t1 unit doesn't get vet for killing just 1 t1.
It's not hard for a monkeylord and GC to kill some additional units and gain one veterancy. The highest HP experimental benefit more from veterancy system, so it's not necessary to overbuff them.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 16:06

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T14:58:44+02:00

Thank you for putting in this work, pip. It is very enlightening.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

I'll add my opinion that this should be tweaked to 1,3,9,100. Should a monkeylord really have to kill 2 GCs to get vet? And xps are worth much more than 10 T3 units, so it works.

But yeah, zep, listen to pip. He knows what he's talking about.

Statistics: Posted by FunkOff — 11 Jul 2012, 14:58

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T14:56:42+02:00

We were at the same conclusion considering overcharge by the way. These value seems fine, I will try to push a 3616 balance mod tonight using these values.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Jul 2012, 14:56

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T14:36:34+02:00

I spent a few hours testing a lot of parameters for the new veterancy system. Here are my findings:

1) Units providing wrong xp:
Here are the units I spotted that don't provide the intended xp value when killed :
Absolver = 1 xp
Hoplite = 1 xp
Mongoose = 10 xp
Firebeetle = 1 xp
Seraphim t3 mobile shield generator = 5 xp
Spearhead t3 mobile missile platform = 5 xp
All SCU = 10 xp
T1 transport = 5 xp
Mercy = 10 xp
UEF and Cybran Fighter / bomber = 10 xp
Seraphim Fighter / bomber = 1 xp
Cooper (UEF torpedo boat) = 1 xp
Mermaid = counter intelligence boat = 1 xp
Seraphim t3 sub = 1xp
All strategic subs = 0 xp
All tac missile launchers = 0 xp
All strategic missile launchers = 0 xp
Seraphim experimental nuke launcher = 0 xp
Seraphim Battleship = 0 xp
UEF and Seraphim ACU = 0 xp

I don't know how to tweak the system so that each unit has the proper xp category, but at least these info can tell you what units need to be looked at.

2) Tuned down xp values : After a lot of testing, I believe the xp values for each tier should be more like :
1 xp / 3 xp / 6 xp / 50 xp, to prevent too fast boost at different levels.

3) Custom ACU veterancy requirements:
I tested new ACU veterancy requirements following a simple rule : each level is +10 compared to the previous one, so that it's slower to level up to higher levels.

Level 1 = 20
Level 2 = 50
Level 3 = 90
Level 4 = 140
Level 5 = 200

I tested these thresholds with xp values as mentionned above (t2 = 3 xp).
In a game against a cheating Sorian AI rush to mimick a t1 and t2 fight with an upgraded ACU using a lot of overcharge to kill t1 and t2 units, the veterancy levels were quite close to the old system. Explanation : when I was 2 stars i.e between 50 and 90 xp, I had around 40 kills (same as previous level 2). When I reached level 3 (90 xp), I had 64 kills, which is close to the previous 60 cap. The benefit of the new system is that it's harder to farm t1 units for veterancy in higher levels, but not that easy to reach level 4 and 5 veterancy even against t2 and t3.

4) Increase a bit reload of overcharge:
To further prevent ACU from being too strong against t2 and T3 thanks to overcharge, I would advise to revert overcharge rate of fire to 0.2 (3599 = 5 seconds) from 0.3 (3603 = 3.3 seconds), or to a middle value like 0.25 (4 seconds), to increase a bit the window of vulnerability of the ACU, and make it more risky to go rambo against a few t3 for instance.
Even in a customized veterancy system like I described in 3), where the ACU doesn't gain veterancy too easily, the biggest problem is not so much the hp boost for ACU (except in a few cases where the ACU has a lot of HP) but the fact that it can kill instantly big threats in a glimpse = making the opponent waste a lot of mass. I think the risk / reward is currently too much in favor of the OCing ACU, because of the too fast reload of overchage.

5) Veterancy levels adjustments for Experimentals:
Monkeylord and Ythota (there seems to be a typo for level 2, it should be + 75 for each level and level 2 was + 50) :
Level 1 = 75
Level 2 = 150
Level 3 = 225
Level 4 = 300
Level 5 = 375

Megalith should have the same levels as GC: 100 / 200 / 300 / 400 / 500

Air Experimentals should all have : 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250, even though these values don't mean the same for them.
The new veterancy system is sometimes a big buff : for the Czar, it makes its defense against ASF higher, for the Soul Ripper, it also increases a lot its survivability because each level equals a lot of HP. I believe its cost should be reverted to what it was for this reason, because it's almost sure you'll attack t1/t2/t3 units and structures in packs and it will then reach veterancy faster than before (and thus, it is a strong unit).
For the T4 bomber, it's a buff against air units, but a big nerf against land ones, because it cannot gain more than one level at a time. I think it's fine like that.

For Tempest, Fatboy and Atlantis, it's a good buff with the current quite low veterancy requirements because they don't have too much HP, providing the new xp values are 1 / 3 / 6 / 50 (otherwise, even them are OP).

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 14:36

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T10:35:03+02:00

Thanks. I can eventually goes by the same classification as the cheating menu if it's easier.

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 11 Jul 2012, 10:35

Re: New Veterancy fine tuning

2012-07-11T10:30:32+02:00

Ze_PilOt wrote:
I rely on the categories in the BP, but it seems that some units are off. Firebeetle are tier 3 for exemple.

If someone got time to make me a list of all incorrect units ? (can easily be spotted on with the select tier in cheating menu, it use the same classification as the veterancy one).

I thought about that too, but it's not that simple. For instance, Firebeetles are listed in tier 3, but they give 1 xp only. I'm testing all units right now to check which ones don't provide the proper amount of xp.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 11 Jul 2012, 10:30