Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-06T15:37:52+02:00

Mycen wrote:
I used to think this too, but it typically does not work that way. The amount of damage that the fatboy dishes out is so large that you will quickly destroy anything that is in range. To prevent this, your opponent has to either retreat from the Fatboy's cannons or attack the Fatboy. Since you either need to advance to keep fleeing foes in firing range, or retreat/maneuver to prevent your opponent from neutralizing the Fatboy, players are very rarely in a position where they will actually have targets available for a stationary Fatboy.

This is why you will almost always be in a position to either use the Fatboy's offensive power or use its build power, but almost never both at once. As you said earlier, in the end, the primary use for the Fatboy's build capabilities is essentially to add flexibility to the Fatboy itself, not to make the Fatboy a major contributor to your army's ranks. Although it is called a mobile factory, it is primarily a combat unit, which I think is totally acceptable.

Playing UEF on late stages I usually reclaim best ability of this faction: defence. May be Percivals, Fatboys, Ravagers aren't that good in attack, but in defence they are much more dangerous. So on T3 stage I usually don't have any T2/T3 land factoryes, because I reclaim them to build Ravagers and Fatboy. This is that time, when I use its building capability, but when it comes to someting big and scary coming my way, sometimes with artillery to break Ravagers, so I have to stop building Percivals to start moving and firing. That is why it needs to keep firing while building and ability to save queues after it started moving.

Firewall wrote:
As for the enabling dynamic within FAF 3626, it is acceptable even though it goes down the path of "Tech Tree" buildings. But just because it has started to go down the path does not mean we ought to go ever further down it. Engie Mod is not the best solution. It is an acceptable solution. In heading further down that path you risk destroying much of what Supreme Commander is and should be. So you need to carefuly ask the question: Should we go down that path? Progress is not always a good thing, unless, you first ask which direction one ought to be progressing in.

Your arguments sighted the fact that many other RTS games have tech tree structures. But you need to realise that Supreme Commander FA is the best RTS in existance. SC FA is the benchmark by which all other RTS games are measured. So why would you patch it to emulate an inferiour product?

That's not what attracted me to this game. I've been attracted by economy system, strategic view, thing with increasing building rate by assisting with engineers, idea of ACU ect. But not by unexistence of tree stuctures. There is nothing bad having primitive one, engie mod proved that. So as a perfectionist I would like improving this game as I suggested or removing tree structure at all, because I loved this game as it was before engie mod. So to me it's better having fully complete project or not having it at all, instead having partly done one.

I would like continuing our discussion, but I'm gonna have a holiday in Turkey for a couple weeks. I could hope that some kind of "old style" game mode will appear in FAF, while I'm offline, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 06 Aug 2013, 15:37

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-05T23:45:26+02:00

Firewall wrote:
If it could build and fire, it could effectively pull upto the "firing line" and build units. At all times while it is not advancing, it could be pumping out Percies, flak and shields while giving the opponent "merry hell". IMO this is the proper way to use a Fatboy.

I used to think this too, but it typically does not work that way. The amount of damage that the fatboy dishes out is so large that you will quickly destroy anything that is in range. To prevent this, your opponent has to either retreat from the Fatboy's cannons or attack the Fatboy. Since you either need to advance to keep fleeing foes in firing range, or retreat/maneuver to prevent your opponent from neutralizing the Fatboy, players are very rarely in a position where they will actually have targets available for a stationary Fatboy.

This is why you will almost always be in a position to either use the Fatboy's offensive power or use its build power, but almost never both at once. As you said earlier, in the end, the primary use for the Fatboy's build capabilities is essentially to add flexibility to the Fatboy itself, not to make the Fatboy a major contributor to your army's ranks. Although it is called a mobile factory, it is primarily a combat unit, which I think is totally acceptable.

Firewall wrote:
As for the enabling dynamic within FAF 3626, it is acceptable even though it goes down the path of "Tech Tree" buildings. But just because it has started to go down the path does not mean we ought to go ever further down it. Engie Mod is not the best solution. It is an acceptable solution. In heading further down that path you risk destroying much of what Supreme Commander is and should be. So you need to carefuly ask the question: Should we go down that path? Progress is not always a good thing, unless, you first ask which direction one ought to be progressing in.

Your arguments sighted the fact that many other RTS games have tech tree structures. But you need to realise that Supreme Commander FA is the best RTS in existance. SC FA is the benchmark by which all other RTS games are measured. So why would you patch it to emulate an inferiour product?

Exactly. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 05 Aug 2013, 23:45

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-05T05:23:03+02:00

As for the Fatboy I believe you have identified the problem. The problem is that a bug prevents this units from firing and building at the same time. If it could build and fire, it could effectively pull upto the "firing line" and build units. At all times while it is not advancing, it could be pumping out Percies, flak and shields while giving the opponent "merry hell". IMO this is the proper way to use a Fatboy.

Since the introduction of 3626, I have actually noticed similar issues with the Aircraft Carriers. Particularly the Aeon Keffer Class Carrier. It will not fire its AA missiles while building. Which it did before the patch. This is a real issue, because I now need to babysit my carriers and cancel the BO when the carrier is under attack.

As for the enabling dynamic within FAF 3626, it is acceptable even though it goes down the path of "Tech Tree" buildings. But just because it has started to go down the path does not mean we ought to go ever further down it. Engie Mod is not the best solution. It is an acceptable solution. In heading further down that path you risk destroying much of what Supreme Commander is and should be. So you need to carefuly ask the question: Should we go down that path? Progress is not always a good thing, unless, you first ask which direction one ought to be progressing in.

Your arguments sighted the fact that many other RTS games have tech tree structures. But you need to realise that Supreme Commander FA is the best RTS in existance. SC FA is the benchmark by which all other RTS games are measured. So why would you patch it to emulate an inferiour product?

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 05 Aug 2013, 05:23

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T09:27:29+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Exactly. There is no reason to say, "Well why not, we've come this far!" when we have stretched what makes sense quite far enough with engymod. Let's not go any further just because we can.

That's not a good thing, stopping on a half way. If the job has been started, it has to be finished.

Mycen wrote:
Surely you jest. The Fatboy's bizarre and extremely slow rolloff always prevented that from being the case, not to mention that even with 3x the build power, its cost was far greater than 3x, and it has the 'attack or build' tradeoff that means you're almost always wasting half its capabilities/cost. The Fatboy takes so long to build and moves so slowly that you're better off just dropping a bunch of engineers close to the frontline and building normal factories if field production is your goal.

The Fatboy is a mobile factory, but it's stiil T4 unit. The reason why half of its abilities are wasted is because its build queue disappears, when you start moving it and there is a bug, when you starting/finishing unit building it stops firing. If such things will be solved, it will be used much correctly

Mycen wrote:
You started this thread arguing that Percivals are too powerful now, and this change would act as a break on UEF percival spam. Now you're saying that UEF land isn't strong enough, so this would be a needed buff? Which is it?

I wanted to say, that Percivals vere strong and it was balanced by sniper bots, but powerfull T4 bots didn't change much, they even got stronger, so the way I suggested is the way to even things for UEF in experimental game.

Mycen wrote:
But don't you see how this isn't adding options, it's taking them away? Consider this example: If you want to maximize the combat effectiveness of your ACU, you might give it the gun upgrade, or you might give it the T2 engineering suite, right? Those both maximize its effectiveness at the desired task, but in different ways. You have options. If you want to maximize your economy, you aren't going to decline to build ras on your ACU right? Because it's the only option your ACU has for increasing your economy.

Do not forget that build rate is economy as well. You can upgrade ras on ACU or you can get T2/T3/drons and get better resource structures faster, while having an oportunity of reclaiming faster. This is the option of maximizing your economy as well, but with other way.

Mycen wrote:
It's the same thing with trying to spam land. Right now if you want to build percivals as quickly as possible, you can build more factories, or upgrade your factories to HQs, or assist them with engineers. You have several options that will all produce the desired result (more percies) in different ways. If your change were implemented, every UEF player who wants to spam percivals would, as soon as possible, build a fatboy, because it's the only way to get that increase in production rate.

That is fewer options, not more.

And here you are wrong. Fatboy costs: 28000 mass and 350000 energy; while Spyder costs: 19000 mass and 260000 energy or Yotha costs: 25000 mass and 312500 energy. So if you will put in a Fatboy all your eco, spyder or Yotha will rush into your base, destroying your eco structures, your Fatboy and your ACU, so you will lose the game. Or enemy can put resources in the air and stiil win you. So rushing Fatboy on early T3 stages will be too risky.

Firewall wrote:
It may be true that Engie mod, has made T3 spam more accesible. But this also means that Aeon, Cybran and Seraphim T3 are also equally accesible. When matching T3 against T3, the other factions are well equipped to deal with Percies.

As for the utility of the Fatboy, I would agree that reduced rolloff time would be beneficial. But I think that this unit is best utilised in the attacking role. The ability to spam out some engineers for reclaim, or a T3 engineer to build SAM's or flak to defend against those gunships adds to the units flexibility.

And that is thing i don't like. Now other factions are able to deal with Percivals with their own T3, but they still have strong T4. Percivals are still unable to replace T4 direct firing unit. I don't say that they can't fight with experimentals, i say that they are much worse at cracking throught defences. T4 bots can walk throught small gap in defences, while percivals need a lot of space, so even if they will somehow sneak in base, the won't case that much damadge. Playing versus UEF players i found out that you don't need to make that much defences in the gaps, you just need correctly place walls.

Of corse such machines of death and destruction like Ravagers are cool, but it is stationary. So at late stages it is better to try something else, like nukes or T3 artilery, instead of building support commanders and trying to creep in enemy base

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 02 Aug 2013, 09:27

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T09:23:43+02:00

No, I think the problems were never identified to begin with.

1) Connection between mobile and static factories is not a problem. It is a proposed solution, to a pervieved problem which doesn't actually exist. What says their ought to be any connection at all? What is the problem?
2) The capability of this unit (the Fatboy's manufacturing capability) always has been useful, and would be no more useful following your proposed changes.
3) The UEF has no problem with T4 direct fire unit. Because they have the Percival. They also have the Ravager T3 PD which is unique to this faction. So they are the best equipped to "Recieve" a T4 Direct Fire Experiemental. It is faction diversity which most UEF players accept.

It may be true that Engie mod, has made T3 spam more accesible. But this also means that Aeon, Cybran and Seraphim T3 are also equally accesible. When matching T3 against T3, the other factions are well equipped to deal with Percies.

As for the utility of the Fatboy, I would agree that reduced rolloff time would be beneficial. But I think that this unit is best utilised in the attacking role. The ability to spam out some engineers for reclaim, or a T3 engineer to build SAM's or flak to defend against those gunships adds to the units flexibility.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 02 Aug 2013, 09:23

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T08:25:28+02:00

The problem in our discussion is that I tryed to solve three problems at once;
1) Connecting units with building capability with stationary facilities.
2) Making this building capability to be usefull and balancing it with each other.
3) Solving problem with UEF T3-T4 direct firing unit.

You didn't expected your units to be in next patch, but I know, there were discussions of adding new direct firing T4 unit for UEF. And again engie mod made it complicated, because second and third problems could be solved by:
1) Increasing Fatboy's and Megalith's build rates.
2) Reworking Megalith's building capability (I really don't like those eggs).
3) Reworking Fatboy's building capability (it takes about 4 seconds to move unit from conveyor belt, it's not that scary with Titan, for example, which takes 13 sec, but it's bad with flak, which takes 4 sec to build).

Solving theese problems one by one isn't that hard, but solving them at once, having old issues with engie mod is too complicated. And that is what you don't like.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 02 Aug 2013, 08:25

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T08:00:09+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
To me, it sounds like: "Why can I suddenly upgrade T1 factories to T2 support or build new ones, because I have T2 HQ?".

Exactly. There is no reason to say, "Well why not, we've come this far!" when we have stretched what makes sense quite far enough with engymod. Let's not go any further just because we can.

Apofenas wrote:
The mod, first of all, changing dynamics of land factories, doesn't affect best land factory in the game.

Surely you jest. The Fatboy's bizarre and extremely slow rolloff always prevented that from being the case, not to mention that even with 3x the build power, its cost was far greater than 3x, and it has the 'attack or build' tradeoff that means you're almost always wasting half its capabilities/cost. The Fatboy takes so long to build and moves so slowly that you're better off just dropping a bunch of engineers close to the frontline and building normal factories if field production is your goal.

For the player who wants to build a bunch of land units, at no point ever was the Fatboy anything close to the best land factory in the game.

Apofenas wrote:
Combinations of other factions with Huge direct firing units, sniper bots and a little bit worse, but still T3 bots/tanks are capable of much easier finishing game, Because T4 units are much more powerfull and can get huge health boost, by achieving veterancy levels(try to do same with army of Percivals), while UEF forces won't be successfull so much, ... So it will make UEF even to other factions in experimental fight without adding new direct firing unit.

You started this thread arguing that Percivals are too powerful now, and this change would act as a break on UEF percival spam. Now you're saying that UEF land isn't strong enough, so this would be a needed buff? Which is it?

Apofenas wrote:
because Fatboy isn't a tank or mobile firebase or battlestation, it is experimental mobile land factory, so I believe it should be used so. ... , so the best way of using it as a land factory is to make it HQ land factory, capable of increasing Percival build speed. So it will make UEF even to other factions in experimental fight without adding new direct firing unit.

Oh, I agree that given its description, it is a shame how little it is used for actually building units, but that doesn't mean the best way to push it in that direction is to impose new and arbitrary limits on other units. Aside from increasing its build power to be triple that of T3 Land HQs again and (if possible) decreasing its rolloff time, I'm not really sure what the best way of making the Fatboy attractive as a factory is, or if there even is one. But I know it isn't this.

Apofenas wrote:
so it's just a new option for this faction.

But don't you see how this isn't adding options, it's taking them away? Consider this example: If you want to maximize the combat effectiveness of your ACU, you might give it the gun upgrade, or you might give it the T2 engineering suite, right? Those both maximize its effectiveness at the desired task, but in different ways. You have options. If you want to maximize your economy, you aren't going to decline to build ras on your ACU right? Because it's the only option your ACU has for increasing your economy.

It's the same thing with trying to spam land. Right now if you want to build percivals as quickly as possible, you can build more factories, or upgrade your factories to HQs, or assist them with engineers. You have several options that will all produce the desired result (more percies) in different ways. If your change were implemented, every UEF player who wants to spam percivals would, as soon as possible, build a fatboy, because it's the only way to get that increase in production rate.

That is fewer options, not more.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 02 Aug 2013, 08:00

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T07:05:43+02:00

Apofenas wrote:
..., but even here of FAF I saw some topics about reworking/adding new units to this game. For example: "New Unit Concepts to make Naval Battles Awesome"(viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4636). Black ops had same units: Cybran:T2 Minelayer Submarine and Cybran:Anti-Shipping Mine - In Black ops you could build mines by engineers; Aeon:T3 Mothership - you could build floating units on naval factories (and Tempest as well). Seraphim:T3 Hovering Transport - well, it wasn't black ops, but there was one buggy mod adding such units to each faction.

That's why I prefere reworking old units. This idea may not to be that balanced, as I hope it to be, but if one day there will be decision of adding new experimentals, think of my though again.

I think when we are talking about adding units to the game. These would be done via mods. But when you're talking about engy mod balance, we are then discussing default FAF balance. Which is played in ranked matches. I would not expect to see any additional units in 3626 or any subsequent patch.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 02 Aug 2013, 07:05

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T06:10:25+02:00

When I was creating this topic I did realize, that this suggestion will fully work out, if it will work out at all. The reason why I defending such balance is because I saw a lot of topics about making Fatboy stronger or adding new units to UEF since appeared Supreme Commander: Forget alliance (That is because in original SC Fatboy could easily kill GC and of course Spyder).

That's why (i think) appeared Hawk's mod (which became a part of truly unbalanced Black ops) and such mods. I don't like any ideas of adding new units to this game, but even here of FAF I saw some topics about reworking/adding new units to this game. For example: "New Unit Concepts to make Naval Battles Awesome"(viewtopic.php?f=42&t=4636). Black ops had same units: Cybran:T2 Minelayer Submarine and Cybran:Anti-Shipping Mine - In Black ops you could build mines by engineers; Aeon:T3 Mothership - you could build floating units on naval factories (and Tempest as well). Seraphim:T3 Hovering Transport - well, it wasn't black ops, but there was one buggy mod adding such units to each faction.

That's why I prefere reworking old units. This idea may not to be that balanced, as I hope it to be, but if one day there will be decision of adding new experimentals, think of my though again.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 02 Aug 2013, 06:10

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T04:39:58+02:00

Affording the Fatboy a global Build Rate buff would be a fairly ubiquitious change. Which would be invisible to most players. However, Supreme Commander was built on fairly simple and universal build mechanics. Which combine to create some pretty interesting outcomes. As soon as you head down the path of complicated buffs and multipliers, you have abandoned the very thing which makes Sup Com what it is. This is not like any other RTS, so it can't be balanced in the same manner.

A Percy is a Percy. So it should always have the same build time. At some point you need to recognise that you are trying to use balance modifications to steer the gameplay toward the type of gameplay you like. Which is not balance at all. It is an inhibition and limitation, with the explicit intent of engineering gameplay. If the meta-game has steered toward T3 AAB spam, then devote time to learning the counters. Such that you feel comfortable dealing with it.

The purpose of balancing is to ensure that the meta-game does not spiral into a "use this faction or die" sort of scenario. Which is not where we are at. The mechanics are pretty universal, and all the factions viable... If you have trouble going up against Percies, you should first try to work on counters. THEN when you have exhausted your counter options we can talk about balance.

Statistics: Posted by Hawkei — 02 Aug 2013, 04:39

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-02T04:28:58+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Ah, okay, well that's more clear. Still, I don't like the idea. Factories can suddenly build more quickly because there is a fatboy/megalith somewhere on the field? And not even that they can build more quickly, but they can build one particular unit more quickly? How does that make any sense at all?

To me, it sounds like: "Why can I suddenly upgrade T1 factories to T2 support or build new ones, because I have T2 HQ?". The mod, first of all, changing dynamics of land factories, doesn't affect best land factory in the game. Combinations of other factions with Huge direct firing units, sniper bots and a little bit worse, but still T3 bots/tanks are capable of much easier finishing game, Because T4 units are much more powerfull and can get huge health boost, by achieving veterancy levels(try to do same with army of Percivals), while UEF forces won't be successfull so much, because Fatboy isn't a tank or mobile firebase or battlestation, it is experimental mobile land factory, so I believe it should be used so. And if it could build while moving, it would be used so, but that is impossible, so the best way of using it as a land factory is to make it HQ land factory, capable of increasing Percival build speed. So it will make UEF even to other factions in experimental fight without adding new direct firing unit.

For Cybrans though, I suggested to do same with Megalyth and Bricks, because Megalyth won't appear in the game so early, because of its cost and Brick spam won't be so dangerous, because Bricks are a little bit worse than Percivals, so it's just a new option for this faction.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 02 Aug 2013, 04:28

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-01T17:19:18+02:00

Ah, okay, well that's more clear. Still, I don't like the idea. Factories can suddenly build more quickly because there is a fatboy/megalith somewhere on the field? And not even that they can build more quickly, but they can build one particular unit more quickly? How does that make any sense at all?

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 01 Aug 2013, 17:19

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-08-01T04:36:17+02:00

Really, the real problem with your idea is evident right here:

to force players

We are supposed to be giving players the freedom to do different things. Not forcing them to do one thing in order to do another. You should always be trying to give players more options, not less.

Excuse me for my bad english. I was hurrying to answer.

I wanted to say: to give players choise between continouing T3 spam with normal speed or building experimental and start making spam with increased speed. Then goes choise between keeping this experimental in base or in front, where it is vulnerable.

Well, I don't like an idea of engie mod as well. But if I have to play with it, I want to play without such bugs.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 01 Aug 2013, 04:36

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-07-31T19:58:00+02:00

Although as the only way to make the engymod concept work it is what it is, as Firewall pointed out, it's already bad enough that a unit (factories) can arbitrarily lose/gain abilities because of another unit somewhere else that is unconnected to it (HQs). To exacerbate this problem by forcing players to build another unit in order to get their factories to work properly is just... outrageous.

Really, the real problem with your idea is evident right here:

to force players

We are supposed to be giving players the freedom to do different things. Not forcing them to do one thing in order to do another. You should always be trying to give players more options, not less.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 31 Jul 2013, 19:58

Re: Reworking Fatboy, Megalith, Tempest and Aircraft carrier

2013-07-31T12:00:37+02:00

da_monstr wrote:
Megalith as a pre-requisite for bricks? Really? That would mean no bricks for quite some time for cybran, almost none in 1v1 for sure. Then UEF and Cybran would be at a huge disadvantage vs Aeon and especially Sera. They both also lack an exp that can take on GC or ythotha, and Titans and loyalists are just too weak for that. So lategame whould basically be GG for these two factions.

So your suggestion seems silly to me. Sorry.

Watch my answer to ColonelSheppard. At the early engie mod version Percival or Brick spam could just annihilate any land experimental. I haven't played that version, but i saw a couple casts. Then their build speed was reduced. So I suggested to increase it back, when you build Fatboy or Megalith, to force players keep those experimentals in base and use t3 spam.

Or wach my answer to VooDoo. I want Fatboy to be HQ. Others changes are an attempt to balance it.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 31 Jul 2013, 12:00