Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-24T00:01:42+02:00

This is a mass for mass discussion, not a unit for unit discussion. I would sort of place this in the same category as the jester..... a really unique unit that costs a ton compared to it's tier counterparts, but does some things really well.

If you want to compare the sheer destructive power of the drops, on a 1-1 ratio a well micro'd drop of aeon arty can do as much or more damage to buildings. However, since the zthuee costs 50% more, you have to count that in. If you drop 16 zthuees, that would be 24 aeon arty, which would do WAY more damage. Or you could go the other way, and build 16 arty and have some mass left over for a couple inti to cover said drops.

Any way you look at it the hover ability has some really good advantages, but it comes at a cost. To say that this unit is OP for it's destructive power on a 1-1 ratio is laughably absurd.

This is a balance thread, which would normally be left open if there were solid data and evidence that there was a problem (suggestions after all ), but I don't see anything here that is an issue.

Statistics: Posted by BRNKoINSANITY — 24 Oct 2013, 00:01

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T23:42:54+02:00

Even if it DOES need a change, there are better ways to do it then DPS.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 23 Oct 2013, 23:42

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T22:28:36+02:00

If faction diversity "isn't a reason for anything", then how would you reply to the obvious argument that the best way to balance the units would be to just make all factions' units be identical except in terms of appearance? Obviously faction diversity is a reason to do or not do certain things, to claim otherwise is nonsensical.

You are right that 10 DPS matters little for faction diversity, but it's more than just the ten (seven, actually) DPS. The Zthuee has a wide damage radius that is multiplied by its split shells, which makes up for its relative inaccuracy. The Fervor is very precisely focused and very accurate. The Fervor also has limited turret traverse, so it is harder to use on the move, while the Zthuee's hover ability allows it to fire in all directions. And of course, the Fervor is cheaper with less HP, while the Zthuee is more expensive and more durable.

Faction diversity is very subtle, yes, but it is still very real, and something to be treasured, not something to be dismissed. People jump in wanting to balance out units, but often their suggestions just homogenize things, so it's always worthwhile to try and preserve differences between units whenever possible.

i meant something different
if you take 10 dps off the zthuee, or sth. like this, faction diversity isnt gone.
theres always faction diversity between the arties.
aeon has no splash
cybran has stun
UEF is low fire rate and big splash
seraphim has well a mix of that stuff
so if any arty had the same exact dps there would still be faction diversity.
so faction diversity is not a reason to have different dps

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 23 Oct 2013, 22:28

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T22:24:09+02:00

The fobo is OP for a 36 mass arty.

However, it isn't one of those. It has a cost 50% higher than all of the others, and for that reason I would say it is WORSE than the other arties in a land map and is nowhere near making up for how horrible the t1 sub is in a naval map. There is no reason to make it any more nerfed than has already been done.

Statistics: Posted by Ato0theJ — 23 Oct 2013, 22:24

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T22:10:52+02:00

Sorry, I whet my internet teeth in 4chan, so snarky is second nature to me. I mean no offense.

- To begin with, your exaggerated statement about how "Nothing else at t1 stage comes close to it in base killing potential" is obviously false, because Fervors do even more damage, even if only just.
- Yes, Fobos can hover, but they are more expensive because of that, and not every map has water.
- I don't really see how it being the most effective of the four T1 arties for drops is indicative of any sort of imbalance - there are many units that are better in particular roles than their factional counterparts, but that doesn't mean that they are unbalanced overall. Part of the reason you commonly see Zthuee drops but not Fervor drops (even though they have greater DPS) is because people just don't do Fervor drops. Fervors don't hover, so it's usually harder to position them in drops, and their damage is much more focused, so they require more micromanagement to take out buildings quickly and efficiently. Aeon also have transports with less capacity and more options than Seraphim at T1/T2, so the T1 arty drop is relatively less attractive.

You are claiming that the Zthuee is incomparably better than every other faction's T1 artillery, to the point that it needs to be rebalanced. I think this is not true. I'm not just looking at the stats, I'm taking into account everything that I have personally seen with Fobos, as well as what I remember of what others have said about it.

Golol wrote:
and faction diversity isnt a reasoning for anything.
i mean, come on, 10 dps more or less doesnt really matter for faction diversity.

If faction diversity "isn't a reason for anything", then how would you reply to the obvious argument that the best way to balance the units would be to just make all factions' units be identical except in terms of appearance? Obviously faction diversity is a reason to do or not do certain things, to claim otherwise is nonsensical.

You are right that 10 DPS matters little for faction diversity, but it's more than just the ten (seven, actually) DPS. The Zthuee has a wide damage radius that is multiplied by its split shells, which makes up for its relative inaccuracy. The Fervor is very precisely focused and very accurate. The Fervor also has limited turret traverse, so it is harder to use on the move, while the Zthuee's hover ability allows it to fire in all directions. And of course, the Fervor is cheaper with less HP, while the Zthuee is more expensive and more durable.

Faction diversity is very subtle, yes, but it is still very real, and something to be treasured, not something to be dismissed. People jump in wanting to balance out units, but often their suggestions just homogenize things, so it's always worthwhile to try and preserve differences between units whenever possible.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 23 Oct 2013, 22:10

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T18:40:15+02:00

Mycen wrote:
Marko Box wrote:Someone had to come out and say this:

Ive seen lots of games end with one or two succesfull zthuee drops, while droping lobos or other kinds of arty dont come even close to damage which can be done by them.

...

If yes are there any sugestions on how to put it in line with other arty?

I find it odd that your assessment of how well balanced they are is based around the fact that they are different from the other factions' equivalent units. Faction diversity be damned, apparently?

Marko Box wrote:
Nothing else at t1 stage comes close to it in base killing potential,

Really? I was under the impression that 100 DPS is greater than 93 DPS. And I can't help but notice that the unit database link that you provided indicates that the greater DPS does not belong to the Zthuee. So...?

Marko Box wrote:
it can float, and also it has a tendency to twitch as auroras do making it harder to hit.

It also costs 50% more. About the twitching thing, I can't really comment, except to say that I haven't noticed it being particularly difficult for any of the counters I use against them to inflict damage. In what situations have you noticed the twitching making it noteworthily more difficult to damage than it ought to be?

Marko Box wrote:
Someone had to come out and say this:
...

Do you agree with me?

People have come out and said this many, many times. And still, no, I don't.

No need to get snarky about it. If you dont agree fine, but just watch some games and notice how much damage zthuee drop does comapred to other units.
You cant just look at the stats and say its fine when in game situation is much different than what you would assume.

Statistics: Posted by Marko Box — 23 Oct 2013, 18:40

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T17:26:45+02:00

dps isnt the only factor.
and faction diversity isnt a reasoning for anything.
i mean, come on, 10 dps more or less doesnt really matter for faction diversity.
i wont pick a side for this thoguh, because it will end in a bitchfight

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 23 Oct 2013, 17:26

Re: Zthuee

2013-10-23T15:49:44+02:00

Marko Box wrote:
Someone had to come out and say this:

Ive seen lots of games end with one or two succesfull zthuee drops, while droping lobos or other kinds of arty dont come even close to damage which can be done by them.

...

If yes are there any sugestions on how to put it in line with other arty?

I find it odd that your assessment of how well balanced they are is based around the fact that they are different from the other factions' equivalent units. Faction diversity be damned, apparently?

Marko Box wrote:
Nothing else at t1 stage comes close to it in base killing potential,

Really? I was under the impression that 100 DPS is greater than 93 DPS. And I can't help but notice that the unit database link that you provided indicates that the greater DPS does not belong to the Zthuee. So...?

Marko Box wrote:
it can float, and also it has a tendency to twitch as auroras do making it harder to hit.

It also costs 50% more. About the twitching thing, I can't really comment, except to say that I haven't noticed it being particularly difficult for any of the counters I use against them to inflict damage. In what situations have you noticed the twitching making it noteworthily more difficult to damage than it ought to be?

Marko Box wrote:
Someone had to come out and say this:
...

Do you agree with me?

People have come out and said this many, many times. And still, no, I don't.

Statistics: Posted by Mycen — 23 Oct 2013, 15:49

Zthuee

2013-10-22T19:26:33+02:00

Someone had to come out and say this:
Its overpowered.
I can also bet that many high level players will agree to that statment.
Ive seen lots of games end with one or two succesfull zthuee drops, while droping lobos or other kinds of arty dont come even close to damage which can be done by them.
Nothing else at t1 stage comes close to it in base killing potential, it can float, and also it has a tendency to twitch as auroras do making it harder to hit.

http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... 03,XSL0103

Do you agree with me? If yes are there any sugestions on how to put it in line with other arty?

Statistics: Posted by Marko Box — 22 Oct 2013, 19:26