Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-15T14:45:09+02:00

On that 4obsis+2shield vs 5chick bot
Aeon army = 4x (360+18,5 for energy) + 2x(144+181 mass for energy (500/75=6,6; 1200/6,6=181) ) => 1514+650=>> 2164
sera army = 5x chick bot = 5x360 => 1800

2164 vs 1800 and 1800 with micro win.
Whitout shield aeon dont has chance against micro chicken in move.

Auroras are good but this doenst has arty shot, medusa is auroras killer, and must go back (that cost time), and must by micro-ed all time. (that cost many time) time is the most valuable resource

And you has true that obsis is against T1 good too, that i originally mean that isnt

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 15 Jun 2013, 14:45

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-14T14:46:12+02:00

[quote]Did this test (that has been done countless times before aswell, no doubt, still so many claim its other way..) for you aswell. Obsis win, unless they get kited. [quote]
ok in a direct 1 on 1 the obsidian survives with 20 or 50 hp. in my few tests i did about this maybe an obsi or ishie came in range too early or sth like this.
only a tiny amount of micro, a simple click will make the ishie win.
overall the ishies are better.
as the player with the obsidians you often just need luck.
5 obsis + shield vs 6 ishies with focus fire ishies win. in that test one bot was a bit earlier in obsi range than the other ones and got overkilled massively. and that will happen in most situations.
in my opinion in a real ingame situation i would always expect a sera t2 army to win over the same amount of mass in a mixed t2 aeon army.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 14 Jun 2013, 14:46

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T23:59:00+02:00

obsidian win vs chicken in range

but you didn't micro your chicken at all obsidian's shoot can be easly dodged.

Statistics: Posted by dstojkov — 13 Jun 2013, 23:59

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T23:18:03+02:00

replay with obsidians and rhinos vs moving t1:

Spoiler: show

i think in a straight fight no micro no kiting the ishies still beat obsis.

Did this test (that has been done countless times before aswell, no doubt, still so many claim its other way..) for you aswell. Obsis win, unless they get kited.

And why you wana make it bad againt T1? They cost price of 2 pillars, and blaze is waste of mass, at now aeons has problem with T1 spam and has nothing good againt it. For now its a problem what can they do when obsis would not be good but bad againt T1? (at now on spam arent good)

Wow that post..haven't seen so many wrong things in so few words since a while.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 13 Jun 2013, 23:18

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T23:08:26+02:00

Ithilis_Quo wrote:
And why you wana make it bad againt T1? They cost price of 2 pillars, and blaze is waste of mass, at now aeons has problem with T1 spam and has nothing good againt it.

We (aeon players) have aroura',s AROURA'S COUBTER TECH ONE SPAM.

Aroura's counter tech one spam and are countered by almost everything else.

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 13 Jun 2013, 23:08

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T22:40:09+02:00

And why you wana make it bad againt T1? They cost price of 2 pillars, and blaze is waste of mass, at now aeons has problem with T1 spam and has nothing good againt it. For now its a problem what can they do when obsis would not be good but bad againt T1? (at now on spam arent good)

Statistics: Posted by Ithilis_Quo — 13 Jun 2013, 22:40

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T22:14:33+02:00

i think in a straight fight no micro no kiting the ishies still beat obsis.

Afaik ishies vs obsis look quite good, ishies can win with kite (the reason why speed decrease on obsidian would be a very bad idea), but lose without (dont get confused by the shield test)

when i tested the new rhino i came accross this.
and it is logic because the chickens only have i think 4 less dps but 130 more hp and they can focus fire (the obsis cant).
what surprises me that when i tested obsis + shields vs ishies ( 1 shield + 9 obsis vs 10 ishies + a t1 tank) the ishies won i think.

500 HP would make it really OP vs pillar, and also won't really reduce its effectiveness vs t1.

500 hp? is that a typo? otherwise i dont get what you mean.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 13 Jun 2013, 22:14

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T22:07:13+02:00

I don't think obsidians are really very good agianst T1 either, HOWEVER I don't think they are bad agianst it either, and that's the real point.

Sure they are not good agianst but they should be bad agianst it

Statistics: Posted by Nombringer — 13 Jun 2013, 22:07

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T22:04:42+02:00

The test is biased/wrong: The units don't move.
with moving units (both T1 and obsidian), the obsidians will miss some shots. It's a bigger problem for them than any other units.

I don't thing obsidians are that good against T1 (unless they don't move, but they never do).

Statistics: Posted by Ze_PilOt — 13 Jun 2013, 22:04

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T21:55:50+02:00

They are only too strong vs t1, vs t2 they are fine. They can get slightly weaker vs t2 as side effect, they will still dominate it, exception is the chickenbot, that would need to get adjusted to a obsidian that is weaker vs t2. And that they are to good vs t1 can be seen in the replay i posted.

In my tests i haven't seen shields beeing too strong, but in real games its a different situation. Shield strenght isn't easy to see just in tests. I had some concerns to the shields, but with the shield stacking panalaty (that im still not a huge fan of), the easier to spam shields are actually not so good. And Zep wanted the shields to be strong, i don't see a problem, as long as the shielded units are a bit weaker instead. But obsidian is too strong for that (yet energy cost increase will be much less troubleing then speed nerf) and the blaze still too weak.

i think there might be a solution to both of these problems, but im really not sure.
it would be making the dmg per shot 500.

As said, the value of shields is hard to see. In straight equal mass fights they lose, but you never have theese ingame. Afaik ishies vs obsis look quite good, ishies can win with kite (the reason why speed decrease on obsidian would be a very bad idea), but lose without (dont get confused by the shield test). Thats why i thought 720 dmg will be good, it won't touch the ishie/obsi balance, and the little nerf vs pillar/rhino won't really make a difference, they still own them hard. 500 HP would make it really OP vs pillar, and also won't really reduce its effectiveness vs t1.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 13 Jun 2013, 21:55

A

2013-06-13T21:38:09+02:00

I like it that Obsidians are strong. If they appear to be too stong slowing them down a bit, and / or reverting the ratio between hp and shield (but keeping the 5 energy upkeep) should be enough.
But more 1v1 replays are required to check if and how much they are too strong with the current values.
As I wrote in other threads, I'm more concerned with cheap mobile / high hp shields + obsidians than obsidians alone.

Statistics: Posted by pip — 13 Jun 2013, 21:38

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T21:33:37+02:00

ok i just watched it and it is really surprising.
but as you see it seems like the outcome depends on the situation.
what i really fisn surprising is how the ishies owned the obsis with shields.
the problem is that because of overkill ishies have more hp than obsis (2880)
i think there might be a solution to both of these problems, but im really not sure.
it would be making the dmg per shot 500.
here are comparisons:
480 damage per shot; 4 sec reload
pillars: 1920 hp (4hit; 16 secs)
new rhinos: 1920 hp (4hit; 16 secs)
chickenbot: 2880 hp (6hit; 24 secs)
720 dmg per shot; 6 sec reload
pillars: 2160 hp (3hit; 18 secs)
new rhinos: 2160 hp (3hit, 18 secs)
chickenbots: 2880 hp (4hit; 24 secs)
500 dmg per shot; 4.16666 sec reload
pillars: 1500 hp (3hit; 12.5 secs)
new rhinos: 2000 hp (4hit; 16.6666 secs)
chickenbots: 2500 hp (5hit; 20.83333 secs)

with low rof it is very hard to slightly buff or slightly nerf the osidian.
just the tiny change of 20 damage per shot makes it able to propably rape pillars, rhinos and chickenbots. (pillars and rhinos just harder than now).
the 720 dmg would simply nerf it against t2 and make it completly useless against t1.
i think the obsidian cant take any more significant rate of fire decreases since it really suffers from overkill in not testing but real game situations.
well make your own opinion from that stuff.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 13 Jun 2013, 21:33

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T17:34:31+02:00

here

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 13 Jun 2013, 17:34

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T17:34:47+02:00

i dont do attackmove. i just let one side move in in formation close enough so everyone can shoot at everyone else.
hmm do you have the replay?
this is mine
and the striker focus fire vs obsisi dint really work out as good as it could so strikers barely won better than before.
and i also realized that strikers vs pillars is pretty good for the strikers because the pillars overkill quite a lot considering their low dmg per shot
EDIT: i meant strikers. corrected that.

Statistics: Posted by Golol — 13 Jun 2013, 16:54

Re: Obsidians

2013-06-13T16:45:30+02:00

3 Obsis vs 19 Striker with both atackmove > 1 Obsidian left

5 Pillar vs 18 Striker with both atackmove > 1 Pillar left

also, if the obsidians get 720 dmg per shot then in pillars vs obsidians the pillars would have 2160 health and propably win. expecially because the pillars can focus fire and the obsidians cant. if you focus fire with obsis how they are now, they will propably do very bad, and with the change even worse. i am obviously not sure about this because i couldnt test it.

Yes, maybe. Has to be seen. The value need to be adjusted most likley.

Statistics: Posted by Zock — 13 Jun 2013, 16:45