Forged Alliance Forever

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-12-14T20:50:21+02:00

This thread got bogged down - and now mired with this? The both of you, cut it out.

I've locked it, and implore washy to make a new one for the express purpose of balancing them - and let's not have pages of arguments about "they're fine" you can just ignore the thread.

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 14 Dec 2015, 20:50

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-12-12T23:54:10+02:00

KD7BCH wrote:
briang wrote:Firstly, this thread has gone over a month without a post. Please try not to dig up old threads.

Secondly, that may be possible but it is unprecedented. There isn't anything wrong with beetles being able to kill the ACU. The issue is the rather OP nature of them when combined with stealth and a transport.

Technically it could happen I'm sure but I'm never going to agree with gimping a unit as opposed to some sort of simple nerf. You might as well totally redesign it at that point. I think there are more simple and effective solutions.

Oh so now you are a moderator are ya? LOL

Necroing old threads to talk shit are we?

Your immense maturity on this forum continues to shine. We really all appreciate your valuable input.

Statistics: Posted by briang — 12 Dec 2015, 23:54

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-12-12T06:02:25+02:00

briang wrote:
Firstly, this thread has gone over a month without a post. Please try not to dig up old threads.

Secondly, that may be possible but it is unprecedented. There isn't anything wrong with beetles being able to kill the ACU. The issue is the rather OP nature of them when combined with stealth and a transport.

Technically it could happen I'm sure but I'm never going to agree with gimping a unit as opposed to some sort of simple nerf. You might as well totally redesign it at that point. I think there are more simple and effective solutions.

Oh so now you are a moderator are ya? LOL

Statistics: Posted by KD7BCH — 12 Dec 2015, 06:02

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-11-28T20:23:01+02:00

Firstly, this thread has gone over a month without a post. Please try not to dig up old threads.

Secondly, that may be possible but it is unprecedented. There isn't anything wrong with beetles being able to kill the ACU. The issue is the rather OP nature of them when combined with stealth and a transport.

Technically it could happen I'm sure but I'm never going to agree with gimping a unit as opposed to some sort of simple nerf. You might as well totally redesign it at that point. I think there are more simple and effective solutions.

Statistics: Posted by briang — 28 Nov 2015, 20:23

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-11-28T19:40:34+02:00

Is it technically possible to mod the beetles such that they are only able to reduce the ACU to 500 HP or so? This way the sniping player will have to have a pack of gunships or some army around in order to be able to finish the ACU, and these things are scoutable.

Maybe this way the beetles will become a way to wipe out the attacking potential of the ACU, forcing him to run back to his base. Cybran has the weakest ACU - eliminating the enemy ACU as a threat seems useful to me. And it is not as annoying for the victim, since it is no longer an instakill.
And the balance team will be able to raise beetles' damage, so that they are good at sniping eco.

I am just curious if this idea can work, both technically and as a balance idea?

Statistics: Posted by RealityCheck — 28 Nov 2015, 19:40

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-20T02:14:55+02:00

i was fine with beetles...
before you could die to them exploding in the transport without even touching the ground...

i was fine with beetles...
before as soon as they are dropped they do this weird teleport-scatter so you cant overcharge them if you are quick on your feet and facing the right way.

as it stands, if i die to beetles it just feels really cheap. you can't deny the transport without loads of aa or flak, and if you're unlucky you will die anyway as the flak kill the beetles over your head... and people moan about having to bring a few t1 aa with them to deny mercies.

mercies are easily counterable, by a few t1 maa, or a single t1 aa turret.
beetles with this scattering, and exploding on death... are FAR SUPERIOR to mercies, its not like the transport has 1 health.

before the last patch they were strong but not broken.
they are currently totally broken.

Statistics: Posted by d-_-b — 20 Oct 2015, 02:14

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T22:49:51+02:00

I ve proven that it s a viable strategy, not that they were op and needed a nerf.
As i m saying again we only need to nerf acu snipe with transport.

The must do is to remove the possibility of deoping real close to acu.
Nerfing transport clamp for beetle would help nerfing the acu snipe but it would nerf any other use of beetle + transport to snipe eco or xp.... (or t3 bot...)

Statistics: Posted by keyser — 19 Oct 2015, 22:49

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T22:32:57+02:00

Tokyto wrote:
TheRedViper wrote:I think it is important that the Beetle itself doesn't get useless. keyser has proved that Beetles are pretty effective without transport on Open Palms in an early stage ACU push, so I don't think nerfing dmg would be as good as simply making the T2 unit take as much space as a normal T2 unit. Beetle snipes can still happen though, with T2 transport, but that would be a more cost more resources and time. This fixes the problem in a 1v1 situation but likely not in a 4v4 teamgame. That's what makes this so hard.. Air/eco player gifting T2 transport early wouldn't be a problem, but at least it would take some effort and resources put together the snipe.
Beetles cost the same as Rhino atm and actually build faster, maybe change this:

Eco: 300 mass --> 400, 1800 Energy --> 2250, 1200 build time --> 1400, (Rhino is 1320 BT)
T2 Fire Beetle takes same space as any other T2 unit.
Dmg reduced from 3500 --> 3250 or 3000? probably would need some opinions on changing dmg, I don't want to make unit useless).

It's useless right now, so nerfing it doesn't really help (apart from ACU snipe, which is trying to be fixed here)

Sorry Tokyto, you have no say in this! Just kidding, but they are far from useless alone... keyser has proved this many times already, and I remember using them a few times on 5x5 without transport.

Statistics: Posted by TheRedViper — 19 Oct 2015, 22:32

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T15:17:23+02:00

TheRedViper wrote:
I think it is important that the Beetle itself doesn't get useless. keyser has proved that Beetles are pretty effective without transport on Open Palms in an early stage ACU push, so I don't think nerfing dmg would be as good as simply making the T2 unit take as much space as a normal T2 unit. Beetle snipes can still happen though, with T2 transport, but that would be a more cost more resources and time. This fixes the problem in a 1v1 situation but likely not in a 4v4 teamgame. That's what makes this so hard.. Air/eco player gifting T2 transport early wouldn't be a problem, but at least it would take some effort and resources put together the snipe.
Beetles cost the same as Rhino atm and actually build faster, maybe change this:

Eco: 300 mass --> 400, 1800 Energy --> 2250, 1200 build time --> 1400, (Rhino is 1320 BT)
T2 Fire Beetle takes same space as any other T2 unit.
Dmg reduced from 3500 --> 3250 or 3000? probably would need some opinions on changing dmg, I don't want to make unit useless).

It's useless right now, so nerfing it doesn't really help (apart from ACU snipe, which is trying to be fixed here)

Statistics: Posted by Tokyto — 19 Oct 2015, 15:17

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T14:31:45+02:00

I think it is important that the Beetle itself doesn't get useless. keyser has proved that Beetles are pretty effective without transport on Open Palms in an early stage ACU push, so I don't think nerfing dmg would be as good as simply making the T2 unit take as much space as a normal T2 unit. Beetle snipes can still happen though, with T2 transport, but that would be a more cost more resources and time. This fixes the problem in a 1v1 situation but likely not in a 4v4 teamgame. That's what makes this so hard.. Air/eco player gifting T2 transport early wouldn't be a problem, but at least it would take some effort and resources put together the snipe.
Beetles cost the same as Rhino atm and actually build faster, maybe change this:

Eco: 300 mass --> 400, 1800 Energy --> 2250, 1200 build time --> 1400, (Rhino is 1320 BT)
T2 Fire Beetle takes same space as any other T2 unit.
Dmg reduced from 3500 --> 3250 or 3000? probably would need some opinions on changing dmg, I don't want to make unit useless).

Statistics: Posted by TheRedViper — 19 Oct 2015, 14:31

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T06:13:26+02:00

3k damage so it can kill t2 mexes
500-600 hp so it can't be killed so easily
Fix dropping on com's head
Don't make them take 2 spots on transport or else they'd be too much of a bother to use so no one will do it.
Increase mass cost to make it more of a risky investment, as any other tactic.
Making them explode when the transport crashes would be cool (though would open doors to lot of cheap tactics)

Statistics: Posted by angus000 — 19 Oct 2015, 06:13

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-19T02:12:22+02:00

600 HP -- -2.7k dmg

Statistics: Posted by Tremarl — 19 Oct 2015, 02:12

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-18T09:48:27+02:00

Just for a sake of fact,
3599 beetles were 99.5% useless (i used them once to actually make a difference and win )
800 hp 1200 damage

3603: 300 hp 4500 damage, unit was underused cause people forgot that it existed, but when it got used people realised that it was OP.
Faf: damage was nerfed to 3500, and later added special armor type for beetles so they don't kill each other.

I guess it is time for next round of nerf. Gl with discussion

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 18 Oct 2015, 09:48

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-18T09:19:33+02:00

Tremarl wrote:
There is no problem. Beetles have been this way since TA.

They've been this way if you ignore the fact that they've been buffed over and over and over and over and over again up until this point where they're just stupid annoying.
Go dig through old replays and see how many successful beetle snipes there were in a patch like 3599 or even a faf patch around 3620, barely any.. It's gone from a funny thing to a viable strategy and even upto it being OP.

Statistics: Posted by D4E_Omit — 18 Oct 2015, 09:19

Re: removing beetle snipes

2015-10-18T09:15:49+02:00

Tremarl wrote:
There is no problem. Beetles have been this way since TA.

beetles have been severely buffed over time in FAF
- damage increased from 3.0 or 2.5 to 3.5k
- range increased to make them hit the acu better
- not damaging each other
and possibly more that i don't recall right now

and what kind of argument is that?
we wouldn't ever change a thing thinking like that

Statistics: Posted by Myxir — 18 Oct 2015, 09:15