Forged Alliance Forever

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-07T17:56:21+02:00

Yeah, but read his post in the other thread, it only saves ~30 seconds according to him.

Statistics: Posted by quark036 — 07 Oct 2015, 17:56

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-07T14:44:53+02:00

Iszh wrote:
Ehhh i have proofed in the other thread that the eco is really not more than normal eco. All you get is saving of built time. For upgrading ras you need 2 t1 engis but not 10+. I offerend a nice replay in the ras thread just to show this.

In a game that is about constantly improving your economy (even snowballing) in the first 30 mins or so saving time = better eco.

Statistics: Posted by Aurion — 07 Oct 2015, 14:44

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-04T09:07:23+02:00

Ehhh i have proofed in the other thread that the eco is really not more than normal eco. All you get is saving of built time. For upgrading ras you need 2 t1 engis but not 10+. I offerend a nice replay in the ras thread just to show this.

Statistics: Posted by Iszh — 04 Oct 2015, 09:07

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-04T06:58:17+02:00

yeager wrote:
WHAT????????? AN ECO UPGRADE IS WORHT GETTING???? THIS IS HORRIBLE. lets just make all upgrades totally unrealistic with giant mass cost cause its not right that idiots who dont take advantage of it loose

It's a bit more than that, it's a giant eco upgrade that lets you immediatly refund 75% of its cost after you get it. When is the last time you upgraded t3 mex and immediatly gained 2500 mass back from doing so?

Statistics: Posted by Ceneraii — 04 Oct 2015, 06:58

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-04T01:44:44+02:00

Yeah yeah yeah...

Statistics: Posted by dirtierdragoon4. — 04 Oct 2015, 01:44

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-03T19:11:17+02:00

dirtierdragoon4. wrote:
How am I supposed to reply to you stating you don't know what the last paragraph is about. Throw me a bone. The pay-off is greater than not upgrading to RAS. That is the entire point.

WHAT????????? AN ECO UPGRADE IS WORHT GETTING???? THIS IS HORRIBLE. lets just make all upgrades totally unrealistic with giant mass cost cause its not right that idiots who dont take advantage of it loose

Statistics: Posted by yeager — 03 Oct 2015, 19:11

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T12:37:07+02:00

Sounds good to me. I should make a mod if I love it so much. Thread closed in my opinion.

Statistics: Posted by dirtierdragoon4. — 01 Oct 2015, 12:37

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:50:25+02:00

dirtierdragoon4. wrote:
I can not remember a game where the person that upgraded to RAS did not win when their opponents had no RAS upgrade.

I saw so many games where people stupidly made RAS and died because: 1)their opponent made units and used them; 2) their opponent rushed strat and sniped power before RAS is done; 3)their opponent rushed strat and sniped ACU; 4) Plenty of other things strat can do while you make RAS; 5)their opponent made shield/nano and used it; 6)they thought RAS is more valible than additional HP on ACU knowing enemy has 50 strats flying around.

The game is already complicated in building energy and mass without figuring out the best time to upgrade commander to RAS (resource allocation system).

Make 6 t2 mexes, 2 t2 pgens and go RAS. Is it complicated?

Upgrading to RAS can dwarf your opponents economies and doing it well can make the game extremely unbalanced, practically at any point of the game.

No it's not true. Every faction has RAS and every faction has t3 pgens and t3 mexes as a bit less efficient and static replacement to RAS.

The game is inherently unbalanced when teammates share economies (three ways to share) to rush experimentals.

Team games are team games; not multiple 1v1s. If one team communicates, helps each other, shares forces, resources ect, and other team doesn't, the first team will win every time. I wonder when dev team will implement their "Co-op" game mode with only one eco and one army per whole team.

Since upgrading RAS can be a timely and semi-complicated process, and upgrading mexes and building energy reactors is already complicated for noobs, we should restrict RAS.

Does it mean "restrict RAS because it's complicated for noobs"? It might be a secret for you, but there are many things complicated for noobs; should we restrict them all?

I think the game is mainly about noobs becoming experts and it will be too complicated to eco normally and upgrade RAS, making current ranking more skewed. Lets give noobs proper training and a chance to shine in the ranks by practicing without RAS addicts.

Noobs will never become experts if they will play only part of game; especially if you take out main part of ecoing in team games.
If you dislike RAS, don't get it. If you want nobody to get RAS, than make a mod for that and try to play games with it.

Spoiler: show

But if mod will get a lot of games with it, the restriction will get into next patch be sure.

I don't think RAS is a problem. It could get some tweaks or a little rework. But that's not enough for me to make a restriction. To be honest, i think restriction system must be removed in general. They added no t3 air restriction. I never saw it used at all.

tbh im having a hard time understanding the last paragraph's reason

I hope I understood it right too.

Statistics: Posted by Apofenas — 01 Oct 2015, 11:50

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:45:50+02:00

There's already a big thread on RAS a bit down ^^

Statistics: Posted by Gorton — 01 Oct 2015, 11:45

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:43:59+02:00

I used a similar approach to my RAS upgrade. I think it should be restricted at least. And the red text would be fine. It could be a choice to have fighting commander versus eco but rarely does anyone do that with commander in often played maps, they eco.

Statistics: Posted by dirtierdragoon4. — 01 Oct 2015, 11:43

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:36:13+02:00

But why is it bad to have one option more efficient then the other? There will Always be an optimal path for eco, and top players will Always choose that. I could agree with that it could be a restriction, but why should it be under options? i think some red tekst somewhere in my screen that states X Units restricted is more in my face than having to scroll the options and see if it's turned on/off. You say that whithout RAS it will level the playing field between equally skilled/smart players. I would say if the other guy does RAS more efficient, he's clearly the superior ecowhore, you have to compensate then by being a superior strategist (and reclaiming the lost mass). But i think it's not smart in teamgames to not do RAS if you know you won't be using your commander to fight as he will have a superior eco and can outproduce you. For me it's still a choice, do i pick a better eco or do i want to be aggresive with my commander and make him tougher?

Edit: I also agree with Col walter kurtz, it's not hard to RAS you just need to know the optimal path for eco and be aware it exists and of it's efficiency, which is part of learning the game.

Statistics: Posted by wasdf — 01 Oct 2015, 11:36

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:27:15+02:00

The problem is not that noobs have a hard time getting RAS, because it's not difficult. It has a few simple ingredients. You make a T2 HQ, a couple of T2 pgen and about 6 T2 mex. Reclaim speeds things up.

The problem is the noobs that never heard of RAS and end up in an air slot, but it's their teams job to point that stuff out. It goes too far to just disable RAS or remove it because some people are unaware of it.

Statistics: Posted by Col_Walter_Kurtz — 01 Oct 2015, 11:27

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T11:03:35+02:00

How am I supposed to reply to you stating you don't know what the last paragraph is about. Throw me a bone. The pay-off is greater than not upgrading to RAS. That is the entire point.

Statistics: Posted by dirtierdragoon4. — 01 Oct 2015, 11:03

Re: RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T10:19:48+02:00

RAS costs you 5000 mass and 150,000 energy.
ARAS costs the same.
it's not cheap at all, the bonus is about 3000 e and around 16 mass points for sera

for players doing RAS, they would need several T2 pgens or a teammate that already has RAS.
usually first players doing RAS are dedicated air players on a map. so if your air player doesn't manage to get RAS in time to make air how is it the fault of the whole upgrade?

tbh im having a hard time understanding the last paragraph's reason

Statistics: Posted by Necrosis — 01 Oct 2015, 10:19

RAS Upgrade Should Be Restricted

2015-10-01T06:31:14+02:00

I can not remember a game where the person that upgraded to RAS did not win when their opponents had no RAS upgrade. Based on this observation alone:

1. I think RAS needs to be restricted and I suggest it be put in the restriction options to check off in the box after you host your lobby; OR

2. Develop, under options/game options after starting the lobby, a build restriction on upgrading commander and SCU to RAS. Even though its a build restriction, putting it under build restriction would not give players proper in your face, spelled out all the way notice, so putting it under options/game options gives full notice.

The game is already complicated in building energy and mass without figuring out the best time to upgrade commander to RAS (resource allocation system). Upgrading to RAS can dwarf your opponents economies and doing it well can make the game extremely unbalanced, practically at any point of the game. The game is inherently unbalanced when teammates share economies (three ways to share) to rush experimentals. However, taking a rushed experimental out of the equation (only by telling everyone not to), then restricting RAS, it will level the playing field if everyone is equally smart/skilled Since upgrading RAS can be a timely and semi-complicated process, and upgrading mexes and building energy reactors is already complicated for noobs, we should restrict RAS. I think the game is mainly about noobs becoming experts and it will be too complicated to eco normally and upgrade RAS, making current ranking more skewed. Lets give noobs proper training and a chance to shine in the ranks by practicing without RAS addicts.

Statistics: Posted by dirtierdragoon4. — 01 Oct 2015, 06:31