Forged Alliance Forever

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-12-01T18:52:51+02:00

interesting topic, i don't really think is should be nerfed for gameplay reasons, but this rises a problem that have been bugging me for ever with sup com in general.

i understand that assisting is an important mechanic, but deep down, it really makes no sense. I remember the time when the best ratio of build power to factories was the T1 engy, so rather than making many factories, people made just one, and assisted it like crazy with a fuckton of T1 engy.

gameplay-wise, whatever, why not, go for the most efficient solution. but if you think about it, it means that in the end, the T1 engies actually do all the building work... so why have goddamn factories in the first place ? just have your T1 engy build your planes on the grass or whatever, tech levels makes no sense in this system, your ACU could as well build the engies on the floor too, no factories ever needed.

so for nukes...well, it's kind of the same issue, if kennels are going to do all the work, why bother building the nuclear silo ? i don't know, build directly the missile in the open and here we go, who cares...

so, yeah, i'm not so much in favor of assisting for certain things, actually most things except buildings. the primary role of engy is to create buildings right ? it makes sense for them to be able to cooperate to build a structure faster, or an experimental (almost a building anyway), but for T1 engy to be able to build a nuke ? that makes no sense to me, plus really, i would say that some things are supposed to take time.

Statistics: Posted by lapantouflemagic — 01 Dec 2017, 18:52

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-11-01T12:21:01+02:00

i blame Heaven for allowing this :3

Statistics: Posted by Exotic_Retard — 01 Nov 2017, 12:21

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-11-01T04:50:04+02:00

DeadMG wrote:
So change it to

☑ Balanced for dual gap
☑ Balanced for every other 20x20 map

Sure. Let me make a 1v1 5x5 map with water/small islands everywhere and unable to fit a naval factory on the water. I will call it: Fobo Heaven.

Fobo's:
☒ Balanced for Fobo Heaven
☑ Balanced for every other 5x5 map

Let's nerf the shit out of fobo's so they are balanced on this epic 5x5 map!

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 01 Nov 2017, 04:50

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-31T19:20:17+02:00

Ok, a fully upgraded hive can reduce the buildtime for a strategic missile by 6,5%. That sounds like a lot, but you have to admit that upgraded hives have an epic buildrate (75). So.. I dont think the problem is the relationship between buildrate and buildtime in general.

In my experience, the much more bigger problem on maps like dual gap is the lack of knowledge about basic gameplay mechanics.

like:
1. Silly placement of smd (in the middle of your base, or 2 smd in the explosion radius of 1 nuke)
2. 0 scouting.
3. bad teamwork.

You have enough time to recognize what he is doing if you scout frequently, and you have enough time to react if you scouted frequently. Rushing a nuke with hives needs a lot of preparation.
If you see him building a sml while he has 15 hives, you should have up to 3,6 min before the nuke is launched + the time it needs to fly to you. So 2 player on your side should build a smd and put some engies on it (preventing the case the nuke takes out one smd).

☑ Balanced for dual gap

Statistics: Posted by ABSTRACT — 31 Oct 2017, 19:20

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-22T23:24:02+02:00

I tell you something you probly dont know, ready?

you can assist antinuke aswell, isnt it cool? btw anti build it faster and well if you dont scout...

Statistics: Posted by ZeRenCZ — 22 Oct 2017, 23:24

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-21T14:21:41+02:00

Anyway you can always scout enemy base for nukes and build defenses first

Statistics: Posted by NapSpan — 21 Oct 2017, 14:21

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-21T12:47:10+02:00

Farmsletje wrote:
DeadMG wrote:this balance matter should be resolved in favour of playability on large team maps.

☒ Balanced for dual gap
☑ Balanced for every other 20x20 map

So change it to

☑ Balanced for dual gap
☑ Balanced for every other 20x20 map

There's nothing stopping your opponent from building 2 nukes and staggering them

Actually, this is quite a bit less favourable. The first issue is that it involves building another low health, highly volatile building in your base. The second is that the nuke launcher is completely wasted if your opponent successfully counters, instead of the build power which is still very useful. The third is that this is a much harder limit. You must build one nuke launcher and you must finish it, entirely, within the time (e.g. two and a half minutes). For the buildpower you only need to finish that much build power within five minutes to launch your next nuke that much faster. And you also can't boost the launch speed of the first nuke this way. So it's actually a lot less useful to build multiple nuke launchers compared to spam assisting the first one.

Statistics: Posted by DeadMG — 21 Oct 2017, 12:47

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-21T10:43:53+02:00

on maps teamgame maps with close bases you just nuild nuke defence in between bases and nuker if he was fast with his nuke, will have to choose to nuke inbetween bases so he can nuke later again or he will have to nuke base and after that nuke missile will be loaded.

Statistics: Posted by ZLO_RD — 21 Oct 2017, 10:43

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-21T01:13:35+02:00

Id like to add that even for game like gap and dual gap, if you scout enough, and work with your teamate , fast nuke, double triple nuke ... can be countered by spaming common nuke def with your ally. It required to have a lot of bp, and a good cooperation,also to build anti outside of base, to force the other team to choose between nuke def and base.
Its pretty easy to counter, if you have decent teamate (but rare on those map unfortunatly)

Statistics: Posted by jackherer — 21 Oct 2017, 01:13

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-20T23:57:03+02:00

DeadMG wrote:
this balance matter should be resolved in favour of playability on large team maps.

☒ Balanced for dual gap
☑ Balanced for every other 20x20 map

Statistics: Posted by Farmsletje — 20 Oct 2017, 23:57

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-20T23:20:37+02:00

There's nothing stopping your opponent from building 2 nukes and staggering them - in fact I bet that's what happens on dual gap anyway, since nuke rush is absurdly good there. Changing buildpower numbers won't help you in such a case.

Statistics: Posted by Wesmania — 20 Oct 2017, 23:20

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-20T22:54:51+02:00

Considering that nuke assisting has no beneficial effects whatsoever, I would have to say that actually yes, this balance matter should be resolved in favour of playability on large team maps.

Statistics: Posted by DeadMG — 20 Oct 2017, 22:54

Re: Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-20T19:50:33+02:00

Have you tried playing a map that doesn't allow someone to do dumb shit like make 30 t3 hives and an sml without being raped by units?

Your issue is with the map, not with the nuke. Game isn't here to be balanced around dual gap.

Statistics: Posted by FtXCommando — 20 Oct 2017, 19:50

Nerf nuke assisting

2017-10-20T19:18:16+02:00

I've encountered a few really painful experiences lately involving nuke assisting. This should be outright removed if possible, or nerfed to a useless level if not.

The problem is that nuke offers a hard limit on how long you have to build an SMD and get a missile up. After you get nuked the first time, for an unassisted nuke, you have to (after losing pretty much all of your base) get an SMD up within one minute. That's not so bad.

But if the attacker makes, say, 15 t3 Hives (or equivalent bp), this means that you have to get up your SMD AND 15 t3 hives up within just 30 seconds (!) if you want to be ready for the next impact.

Clearly it's expensive for the nuker to build a nuke launcher and 15 t3 hives. But for the nukee, it's almost completely impossible to recover from this position because you have to build an SMD and a very large quantity of build power starting from nothing in a tremendously short time period.

This leads to a very bad effect where once the first nuke lands, it's just a permanent cripple. This is especially bad on team games- the team can't really help you, even if they have resources, because you have to focus all the build power in that one spot immediately. If the bases are compressed (e.g. Dual Gap) then you can do this to more than one person simultaneously.

Nukes should not be the permanent area denial mechanism that assisting makes them into. This was nerfed from Vanilla but clearly just not hard enough for the advantages it offers. I see no positive gameplay implications about nuke assisting, and I've experienced many times that it can be a very negative mechanic. Therefore, it should be removed.

Statistics: Posted by DeadMG — 20 Oct 2017, 19:18