Shields, shields everywhere!

[Pavese]

Here it goes. Shields are a big issue in the game atm. They allow for very static gameplay with massive bunker that take ages to really crack open or have a big big scaling issues where its impossible to bring enough DPS on the field to match the shield recharge.

For instance the t2 static UEF shield:

9000hp (size: 26, regen rate: 120hp/s, recharge time: 15s, recharge rate: 600hp/s)

To kill 2 Shield overlapping bunker you need to have Over 1000 DPS to permanently disable the shields alone.


When we look at mid game we see mostly low HP units with medium range. T2 PDs outrange every T2 Land unit that is not a MML. And the effectiveness of MMLs can be quickly reduced by building a few cheap TMDs.

The game usually goes down the road of teching up to t3 (and then the problem with quick t4) because a Heavy Assault can provide 400 DPs and enough health and range to do such an attack. Deciding to break open a Bunker fortress with T1/T2 can be a deathblow as the attack has to work and you have to get the reclaims to balance up the investment.


Mobile shields:

while they are imo fine in Mid and late ground battles, hovering shields seems to really mess with navy battle, especially in late game.

Navy battles are relatively low "DPS for mass" battles. For instance a T2 Destroyer does arround 250-300 DPS for over 2 k mass. If we look at the Aeon mobile shield

Shield:
3800hp (size: 16, regen rate: 58hp/s, recharge time: 26s, recharge rate: 146hp/s)

Economy:
mass: 144, energy: 1080 (-125), build time: 792

If you have 2 of them, you can tank a Destroyer. A 300 mass investment vs a 2200. Lets talk about scaling. While its not the easiest thing in the word to maintain several shields in early and mid (spending mass into t2 pgens instead of navy/whatever) it becomes just trivial in Late.

Lategame example: a Battleship costs ~9k mass. It does 450 DPS. While its great to have it as "burst" damage and long range firesupport, shields just easily nullify such a huge investment.


Shield boat:

8000hp (size: 120, regen rate: 80hp/s, recharge time: 32s, recharge rate: 250hp/s)

Economy:
mass: 1300, energy: 13000 (-150),

Shield boats fall into the same category. While it is a bigger investment then T2 mobile shields, its much more effective in early to mid due to its big shield size. I never considered Shield boat to be weak or to strong in these stages of the game, but when you get "enough" in late, it just becomes the same problem. Not enough DPS to break the shield wall.

TL,DR

Cybran get screwed over big times in late, Aeon Navy becomes just ridiculous in late and Mid game bunkers are to hard to break. Shield Recharge makes bunkers to strong and massing shields in late is just a win button in Navy.



The question is: can we improve the situation? Or is everyone happy with it?

[Pavese]

I though about a few things:

-Double/tripple the recharge rate of Shields (atleast t2 statics), leave the t3 version as is. T3 stage of the game has a much higher damage output and atm its not worth it to build a t3 shield.

effect: hopefully easier and faster bunker breaking

-buff upgradeable cyb shields? Not in HP or regen, but in price and build time. They are crappy because it takes ages to upgrade.

effect: less crappy cyb shields


-increase the damage of Cyb BS. Cybran have no shields in lategame navy, so a increase in damage could increase their chances. Plus its high RoF makes it less burst damage and allow for more consistent DPS to kill shields.



But tbh i have no idea how to fix mass navy shields. Maybe the increease on shield recharge will help, i dunno.

[Jace]

i am happy with it

shields have to be good, otherwise the whole game would be *only* about finding the commander and sniping him.

on top of that your problem again only applies to games with house rules, or to games with certain maps and overly big maps.
Yes! Setons and the likes are overly big maps! designed for lategamers. dont come and complain about games on maps in that category!

play smaller maps if you dont want shields to become an issue. and play with yourself if you want T3 and T4 to be exactly the same gameplay as T1 and T2!
sorry if that sounds rude!

someone who is turtling with shields on one spot and wins has done something thats very hard on a average map, as he looses much recources while giving the enemy map control. if its a map with a very important spot and you loose because your enemy is turtling on that spot, its your own fault for being too weak, too slow, to hold him off from turtling there.
sorry if that sounds rude too!

as to complaining about too much shield boats: I will give you a somewhat extreme comparison how i see the case: do you complain if you get shredded by a mavor? do you complain if you get sniped by 10 T2bombers?
so why do you complain if you let your enemy get 10shieldboats + ships for damage into the water? when you know that someone has a weak early game navy but a very hard to deal late mid and lategame navy, why do you let it come to that?
nerv shield boats? why not nerving radar stealth boats? why not nerving T2subs?

if you can't deal with properly microed shield boats you will cry about properly microed aeon hover shields next and properly microed sera hover shields after that.
and as cybran: build stealth boats, and dish out T2cruisers, care for a sonar so you have intel. then pressure the enemy so he cant build up an overwhelming force while staying out of range. every faction can only fall to its knees before that.
if you still loose your enemy was simply the better player in water.


the only thing i agree on is that cybrans have too stupid shield gameplay for their static shields. they should be able to directly build their lategame shields, like the other factions too. because upping them takes too much time if your are a eco-lategame-houserules-player.

[Pavese]

It's not a "weaker" shields suggestion. It's a weaker shield recharge! If you want to have your shield online you can do so at any time. Just turn it off and on and it will appear immediately with the HP it already has recharged. Trippling the recharge (200 HP/s)time would still be 150 HP/s more then the regeneration (55-60 HP/s) when it's online.

Assuming that Air snipes are favored by this is just an Assumption. If someone throws 30 T2 Cybran bomber at you and you only have one shield and no air, it doesn't matter how long your recharge is. You're still going to die. Volley damage is the key to a snipe against shields, not consistent DPS. Or do you really see that many T2 gunships snipes when theres 2 T2 AA underneath a shield?


Also the Navy shield is a LATE game issue. Theres nothing you could change without heavily impacting mid game. I guess its okay if you look at it from such an perspective. It's nonetheless an issue imo.

[Kryo]

i made a post earlier, but it didnt show up?

what I wrote:


Reduce shield hp and cost by the same factor.

=> same hp per cost ratio

=> but also same build space needed => less shield hp per area, but same shield hp per ressources spent.

[Jace]

i made a post earlier, but it didnt show up?
what I wrote:
Reduce shield hp and cost by the same factor.
=> same hp per cost ratio
=> but also same build space needed => less shield hp per area, but same shield hp per ressources spent.

actually that could be seen as a buff for moving units. would only really affect static shields.
as you can have more and messing up loosing a few doesnt hurt as much

[Kryo]

i made a post earlier, but it didnt show up?
what I wrote:
Reduce shield hp and cost by the same factor.
=> same hp per cost ratio
=> but also same build space needed => less shield hp per area, but same shield hp per ressources spent.

actually that could be seen as a buff for moving units. would only really affect static shields.
as you can have more and messing up loosing a few doesnt hurt as much

yeah this of course is only good for static shields
mobile shields just need a nerf in hp.

[FunkOff]

We could also try the shield-interference script I wrote... that causes shield recharge time to increase based upon how many other shield generators it was covering. 1 Shield would not have any difference by itself, but a shield covering 6 other shields would experience a 5 x 20% = 100% recharge time penalty.

[noobymcnoobcake]

We could also try the shield-interference script I wrote... that causes shield recharge time to increase based upon how many other shield generators it was covering. 1 Shield would not have any difference by itself, but a shield covering 6 other shields would experience a 5 x 20% = 100% recharge time penalty.

yep, that makes T2 shields still useful and stops them being exponentially harder to kill, 100% agree with this script. It is also a buff to siege weapons which I like. T3 artry are NOT weak against structures only shields.once they broke your shields its over very quick.

[Kryo]

We could also try the shield-interference script I wrote... that causes shield recharge time to increase based upon how many other shield generators it was covering. 1 Shield would not have any difference by itself, but a shield covering 6 other shields would experience a 5 x 20% = 100% recharge time penalty.

yep, that makes T2 shields still useful and stops them being exponentially harder to kill, 100% agree with this script. It is also a buff to siege weapons which I like. T3 artry are NOT weak against structures only shields.once they broke your shields its over very quick.

but it is very complicated to explain to a new player.