Mobile shields cost effectivness

[noobymcnoobcake]

Just how effective are mobile shields? What is the best ratio of shields to harbingers?

Asylum
Health: 100hp (regen rate: 0hp/s, armor type: Normal)
Shield: 3800hp (size: 16, regen rate: 58hp/s, recharge time: 26s, recharge rate: 146hp/s)
Abilities: Hover, Shield Dome
Economy: mass: 144, energy: 1080 (-125), build time: 792
Intel: vision radius: 20
Physics: max speed: 4, turn rate: 150

Harbinger Mark IV
Health: 4600hp
Shield: 1300hp (size: 2.5, regen rate: 9hp/s, recharge time: 60s, recharge rate: 21hp/s)
Economy: mass: 840, energy: 9600 (-25), build time: 3600, build rate: 3
Physics: max speed: 3, turn rate: 120

Then there is the issue of power for the shields. It cost 3240 mass and produces 2500E. So 2500/3240=1.296 mass per unit of power. Sheilds cost 125 power each so 125*1.296 = 162. So a T2 mobile shield cost overall 144+162 mass = 306 mass overall for 3800 HP over a wide area and some insane regen
A harb cost 1.296*25 = 32 mass. Then you got the cost of the harb at 840 mass. That is 872.4 mass overall for 5900 HP and 375 DPS.

The thing is mobile shields are so effective. 10 harbs and 15 shields for a cost of 13314 mass will kill a monkeylord that cost 21k. 3 harbs and 6 shields will kill 5 harbs and lose only one harbinger.Is this fair? The harbs and shields cost 100 more mass yet will devastate the unshielded enemy. In T3 land battles if you do not have shields and the enemy does and you both have equal mass invested into each army then you can be sure to lose. I feel this should be the case but not quite to the extent it is now. The problem is with the regen the shields have. Once the battles last long enough for the shields to regen the benefit you get from then doubles. Here on in the cost effectiveness of them is insane. There is simply no cost effective way of dealing with a shielded army except with one of your own. I have not gone into great depth here as you also have shields with percys and shields with navy.

Shields are balanced ok for battles that they dont regenerate in. But once they do the cost effectivness of them is too high. I think the only solution to the problem that keeps shield balance through the game is funkoffs shield script.

[FunkOff]

10 harbs and 15 shields for a cost of 13314 mass will kill a monkeylord that cost 21k.

You got a replay of that?

Also, you're forgetting a lot of important factors, like build time. The total build time of 10 harbs, 15 shieds and a T3 pgen to run them all is 53,280. ML build time is 15,750.

With equal build power, you can produce a monkeylord for every 4 harbingers. Is this fair?

Let's assume that you want to spend 100 mass per secondon monkeylords, and your opponent wants to spend 100 mass per tick on harb/shield combinations at a ratio of 1 harb to 1 shield. How much build power does each strategy need?

To spend +100 mass on monkeylords, you only need 75 build power, which is 15 T1 engis at a cost of 780 mass.
To spend +100 on harb/shields, you need 400 build power, or T3 factory + 68 T1 engies, or 7726 mass in build power.

Why do I calculate the monkeylord with only T1 engies, but the harbinger with T1 engies and a T3 fac? Because once an experimental starts being built by an upgraded ACU, SCU, or T3 engineers, that unit can wander off and doing something else while T1 engineers finish construction. Compare this to T3 factories, which cannot do other things while the harbingers are building, so they are DEDICATED to the production of this one thing the whole time.

So yes, on a shallow masscost vs masscost basis, T3 units are generally better than experimentals, but what you don't consider it it takes TEN TIMES AS MUCH INVESTMENT IN INFRASTRUCTURE to build them at a similar rate!

[noobymcnoobcake]

Yes I know builtime is a huge factor an now we are getting into the argument of factory buffs ect again and there are plenty of other threads on that. This is more T3 vs T3 than T3 vs experimental and the sheer cost effectiveness of mobile shields.

[Jace]

If you calculate how much ahead in Eco and Buildpower your enemy has to be to get out 15Shields and 10Harbs people deserve to loose i think.
Its not a matter of a ML loosing to that sort of T3Army, more a matter of being able to build up a Army like that.
The ML is up and walking when there should be only 1/4th of that army up.

If you think about a teamgame too the ML can be assist very easy.

So...yeah i think if someone manages to put a army like that against a ML he deserves to win.

[noobymcnoobcake]

As I said before this is not about T3 vs monkey but T3 vs T3. 3 harbs and 6 shields vs 5 harbs. Side 1 wins with 2 harbs and 6 shields. This is the issue not the harbs vs monkey.

[FunkOff]

As I said before this is not about T3 vs monkey but T3 vs T3. 3 harbs and 6 shields vs 5 harbs. Side 1 wins with 2 harbs and 6 shields. This is the issue not the harbs vs monkey.

If shields didn't help, what would the point of making them be?

I think shields are a bit too strong, but only overlapping shields... and this is why I made the interference script.

Of course, even 3 harbs + 6 shields vs 5 harbs is a poor comparison. Obviously, Aeon should use shields. The better comparison would be Aeon vs cybran... but they have loyalists to deal with that sort of thing. All of the other factions have mobile shields same as Aeon.

[Jace]

Then you complain that someone who builds different units and combines them wins against someone who builds only one sort of units?
I would say that i am ok with that.....

Maybe shields are really a tiny bit too strong if you have 10 of them overlapping, but we all already know that you shouldnt let it come to that as long as it isnt changed?

[noobymcnoobcake]

Then you complain that someone who builds different units and combines them wins against someone who builds only one sort of units?

I am ok with this as well, it it a vital game mechanic. But not to the levels it is currently at.

[uberge3k]

Mobile shields cost effectiveness

It's way too high. We know.

Analyzing the relative build time of experimentals, while interesting, still does not account for the fact that those harbs and shields are off killing things immediately while the exp-rushing player is still staring at the construction progress bar and hoping he isn't raided.

[-_V_-]

Like it's been said, the problem is overlapping and bubble wars.
If you think it's bad on land, try with navy. You'll be disgusted from those.