So... Do fire beetles not suck yet?

[pip]

A little discussion in the chat with Isen, Arma and Zock lead me to dig again into this unit behaviour, and retrieve some optimizations we did with Brute51 in the Community Balance Patch.

These little guys need a little love. There are several problems plaguing them:

1) they are hard to use because of the range. It can only work efficiently against small targets because it has only range 0-3. And a factory is bigger than this. Which means that if you order it to attack a factory, it will walk around but never detonate because it cannot reach the center. The only way to use it efficiently against a factory is to target a nearby structure, or to use attack ground (heavy micro required).

2) it's hard to use because one firebeetle will kill all firebeetles around it if they are near. Mercies don't do that.

3) it's hard to use because there is no button / shortcut to make it instantly explode. If you ctrl+k it, it will die without doing damage.
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Now, here are some workarounds and possible improvements:
1) Stats improvements :
MaxRadius = 5 (from 3); it's the range at which the unit will detonate from its target.
DamageRadius = 3.25 (from 3); it's the AOE.
FiringTolerance = 180; it's something to make it detonate without having to look at its target in the eyes (or so I believe)

In order for Firebeetles to properly attack structures and units of all sizes, without having to be exactly in contact, it needs a range attack of 5 (between 4.5 and 5). But then it also needs a slight AOE buff to 3.25 (that's the smallest possible value, otherwise, it detonates too far from its target when it has a small size). And you don't want it to miss the ACU you are hunting.

2) it's possible to render Firebeetles immune to other Firebeetles explosions.

3) it's possible to add a button in the unit panel to instantly detonate it and make the ctrl+k command as an instant explosion dealing damages.

I'm uploading here a previous version of the Community Balance Patch. Anything not related to the firebeetles is irrelevant (3603 came,etc). It's just for you (especially the Balance Team) to test these features. Brute51 (I have his authorization) coded a new weapon behaviour for the firebeetles that improve it a lot while not touching much the stats of the unit (damages, HP, speed, etc). I adjusted slightly a value because I realized the damage radius becomes too small if you increase the range, and then you miss your target.

If the new features (additional button and shortcut, immunity of firebeetles to the explosion of their brethren) seem to the balance team unecessary, please still try the mod to test new values and see the difference when trying to attack factories and targets that are slightly too far away resulting in the complete waste of the unit even though it managed to reach its target (and somehow failed to explode, as seen too often).

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Just unzip the file in your mod folder. Both mods are required because teh community balance patch required the community bugfix patch, but don't bother with all the stuff that isn't firebeetles related.

If you like the ideas above, especially the ones that require Brute51 custom code, it would be possible to add them in FAF, or something of the sort.

[Jace]

Just recently watched a game of Isen vs. Vodoo, Isen was loosing and completely turned the tide with firebeetles. From that i think you are overbuffing them. They are actually already very strong.

You never mentioned the friggin huge damage they do now. So i think buffing the range and other stats is completely wrong! They are supposed to hit only one target with that much damage.
And if they wouldn't require micromanagement ability they would be outright op.

Problems like attacking a factory are clearly a bug and should be fixed without changing the units stats.

[pip]

They are not bugged, it's the stats that are wrong.

If you can't use a unit consistently, and are always like praying for it to have the right behaviour , there is something wrong. I also watched a game between Isen and Voodoo, and some Firebeetles should clearly have detonated in the face of Voodoo ACU, but they didn't.

If they become too easy to use, it's better to nerf the damages they do rather than making them extemely hard to use as they are now. Mercies are extremely easy to use, in case you didn't know. They also can turn the tide pretty well.

I'd prefer Firebeetles doing 3500 or even 3000 damages instead of 4500 but easier to use rather than the unreliable behaviour they have now.

[Jace]

Then tell me: they are quite affordable to now:

What you do when 4 or 5 of them come at your commander in a fight and they don't blow up their fellow beetles? Mercies can be blown out of the air quite easy if you have just 2 or 3 AA-Units. But if you micro the beetles you are able to get them in pretty safe.

[uberge3k]

What you do when 4 or 5 of them come at your commander in a fight and they don't blow up their fellow beetles? Mercies can be blown out of the air quite easy if you have just 2 or 3 AA-Units. But if you micro the beetles you are able to get them in pretty safe.

Maybe don't push your ACU at the front lines like it's Rambo when you've managed to become 1.5k mass behind your enemy?

[Jace]

Maybe don't push your ACU at the front lines like it's Rambo when you've managed to become 1.5k mass behind your enemy?

Why should i be behind my enemy?

[uberge3k]

As in, behind in economy. 5 Firebeetles x 300 mass = 1,500 mass. In a 1v1, that is generally a game-losing amount no matter how you slice it.

[Jace]

y, i still don't get it, why do i have to be masswise behind my enemy when he builds firebeetles?

[pip]

y, i still don't get it, why do i have to be masswise behind my enemy when he builds firebeetles?

Because Firebeetles can't shoot, they are sacrified. If you have equal eco and your enemy built 1500 mass of Firebeetles, you have a lot more units than your enemy, so you can defend better against them.
And if you blow all your firebeetles because of friendly fire or lose them because they only have 300 HP, which at T2, when an ACU has gun upgrade for instance, is nothing : you just lost the game. I'm not saying that they should all go through, just that they should work better.

Not all the improvements mentionned above are necessary at the same time. Maybe all of them are too much and would require a damage nerf (which would not necessarily mean a bad thing either). Maybe just one or two of them, depending of which is the most useful, would be enough. It's the same kind of buff the Mercy had : more fuel, don't lose fuel while on the ground, etc and then it got a hitbox nerf, all other stats staying the same = all gameplay tweaks.

There is no question that Mercies are better than firebeetles and easier to use, it'll always be the case because they can fly. For now firebeetles are occasionnally worthwhile, just because nobody ever builds them and expect them: you can make a surprise attack. So there is no defense plan against them, no fear, because they are extremely rare and unreliable. I think they should be part of the game.

[Plasma_Wolf]

Pip, I've done a small test and (this might be just nitpicking) but firebeetles actually do self destruct at factories. They don't when attacking a paragon or Quantum gate though (the largest structures in the game). It got me to think that a maximum radius of 4 could be enough.