OC and the new vet system

[Pavese]

I like the new vet system and i think it's a good idea. BUT! I think there is one giant problem that it generates: it makes OC even more OP.

ATM OC is a one shot on every <t4 land unit.

In short: oc any tech, get insanely fast Vet. Or: why even bother teching land when theres a gun commander on the field. You give him fast vet-> more hp -> even harder to kill.
Just to compare: if you catch him off guard with T2 air he's dead. No OC there....

This whole thing makes me just want to turtle and go t2 air.

OC needs an overhaul.

IMO there should be 2 types of OC. The Energy storage OC and an upgraded OC.

Energy storage OC: instead of 12k damage reduce it to 500 or 750. Thats the damage it does vs buildings and other coms.

Why? Still one shot t1, one shot t2 bots, 2-3 shots t2 tanks.
Maybe have it have a larger damage on shields?


Upgraded OC: inspired by sera SCU:
http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/un ... bp=XSL0301

An upgrade on the back or a follow up upgrade on the gun. Does the 12k damage.


Imo its the perfect solution. No more free 3600 DPS insta kills, better scaling with the new vet system. Discuss?

[Ze_PilOt]

When I've discussed the new veterancy system with some players, that was the first concern we had about it.
The idea was to go with it and see how players react to it.
But yes, it will probably need a re-work.

[-_V_-]

Have you guys forgotten it is a key signature of the commander/ACU inherited from TA ?

It HAS to be super powerfull, that's the whole idea.

The idea of having 2 types of OC reminds me the spirit of the techtree from SupCrap2. Not sure it should have its place in FA.

If you play decently and don't send isolated high tech units, the overcharge won't do miracle. Then obviously if you send percie by percie...won't go that well

The example with air is irrelevant as the ACU doesn't have any AA of any kind.

[Ze_PilOt]

In TA, you would never send your ACU in the middle of the map, that would be suicidal.

[TA4Life]

Our beloved supcom has already had its right nut removed with the power storage dependence of the oc. Now you all want to remove the right nut as well. You sick people, leave the commander alone. OC play is one of the best aspects of the game. It is where you put your life on the table, with a chance to do a lot of damage. It is where you get the most intensity out of this game. Moving the OC gameplay further into the t3/experimental stage removes it from the game.

If you want to play a pusilanimous style you can still do it. Play your sim city, let the rest of us play the game the way we want to. After all it isn't difficult to defend against a charging acu, with t2 pd, shields and t2 air.

(yes, sera acu has two rights nuts, its because of quantum entangelemt from the 4th dimension)

[Pavese]

If you want to play a pusilanimous style you can still do it. Play your sim city, let the rest of us play the game the way we want to. After all it isn't difficult to defend against a charging acu, with t2 pd, shields and t2 air

T2 air and PDs sound like pusilanimous sim city style to me. And then straight to t4 right?
The stronger OC is, the more i will play sim city because IT ISNT WORTH IT doing a land push that isn't early game and t1!


Loosing your tech vs a almost free ability is not the epitome of good gameplay.

And how any OC nerf would endorse turtle gameplay is beyond me. TBH i t think you have your "amazing TA" goggles on and are talking out of your behind.

Free kill of any Tech witch OC, Imba shields in combination with strong T2 PDs, broken exp build times and untouchable t3 air. All of those things endorse turtle gameplay.
Nerf OC, nerf shields and i might think again about bothering with pre t4 land before i settle again in untouchable t3 air.

When I've discussed the new veterancy system with some players, that was the first concern we had about it.
The idea was to go with it and see how players react to it.
But yes, it will probably need a re-work.

I think it's a good system but it suffers from mayor Balance blunders like OC or T4 build times. It's too easy to kill the high tech stuff with OC (one shot) or these stupid fast t4 rushes(not enough t3 to fight it) that vet and instant health boost become a mayor issue to balance (the later being one since the get go).

[TA4Life]

It doesn't sound like you like this game. I was refering to t2 pd and shields as easy counter to anything that an acu could do at that stage.

A lot of what you said is based on the assumption that an acu can cover an entire map, that is clearly false, unless you are playing winter duel.

The easy solution: scout, if you see an ACU, don't send units there if you are not sure you will kill it. scout, don't see an acu, send your t2/t3 land units in that direction to run your opponent over. This is not a difficult concept.

Seems like you hate both micro of the acu (OC micro), scouting(air micro), attacking on multiple fronts at specific times with quick retreats based on scouting information(land micro).

Removing micro from this game without an obious payoff, seems foolish, especially when it is fun micro.

If you want games with no micro play thermo.

[theZJ]

It doesn't sound like you like this game. I was refering to t2 pd and shields as easy counter to anything that an acu could do at that stage.

Well, what does that sound like? It sound like turtling. And turtling is incredibly boring.

A lot of what you said is based on the assumption that an acu can cover an entire map, that is clearly false, unless you are playing winter duel.

Especially in team games, when everything boils down to certain areas of pressure, an ACU with weapon range upgrade can pretty much cover - combined with the scouting you seem to like so much - cover a huge area and completely deny any pushes whatsoever. Considering that Overcharge is completely free (seriously, do not argue about 5000 energy), it can, without any counter play demolish very valuable units of which there are naturally fewer, because build times of T2 and especially T3 are incredibly high.
It is, and I have to comply with pavese, not a sign of good gameplay if you skip entire tech levels or branches of the tech tree simply because it is not worth it.

The easy solution: scout, if you see an ACU, don't send units there if you are not sure you will kill it. scout, don't see an acu, send your t2/t3 land units in that direction to run your opponent over. This is not a difficult concept.

Often times, when it boils down to choke points, you have a decision to make: Waste your units on an overcharging ACU or just bunker up. This is ridiculous.

Seems like you hate both micro of the acu (OC micro), scouting(air micro), attacking on multiple fronts at specific times with quick retreats based on scouting information(land micro).

Yes because push-button-receive-bacon abilities are so much micro and require so much skill. There is no intensity or requirement in overcharging, its just something that completely murders early techs that do not involve T2 PDs.
Everything you say sounds pretty much like completely made up. Why should the only thing you can do, when teching, against a charging ACU, be turtling up? Why is a T2 army inferiour to a T1 army in this regard?
Everything you call micro is something that is either plain bad game design or a crude hypothesis you just made up.
Team games are an important factor for supcom balancing, and it is not necessary for OC to be overpowered in this regard.

Removing micro from this game without an obious payoff, seems foolish, especially when it is fun micro.

Removing gameplay from this game without an obvious payoff seems foolish, especially when there's so few to be had in the first place.
So many things in this game are "not worth it" right now. Why increase the gap? Overcharge has no right to be that strong against T2, particularely when air is completely unaffected by this. Why should you bother to do a land-based assault when you can achieve so much more by sniping with gunships or the like?

If you want games with no micro play thermo.

Its pretty hypocritical to sell overcharging as great micro, its nothing more than pressing a button in the rhythm of several seconds. There is no skill involved at all. Insulting others because they seem to understand that where you dont is just pathetic.

[Pavese]

edit: dont need that rant twice. Read ZJ post, he just said what i would have.

From a 1v1 perspective it maybe makes sense that OC could oneshot a t3 unit because you can avoid the commander. But still: I have yet to see any game where a free one shot kill that requires no skill at all (press o + click target =/= amazing micro skills) was labeled "balanced". Imo it's bad game design and i would rather have to make a decision that i will get strong OC then have it ready to pwn all time any time.


Nerfing OC into a 2 shot on t2 tanks would even increase the micro because you would have to think which tank to OC instead of randomly clicking things.
Giving it an upgrade form would force you to make a decision if you want to go into a more offensive lategame ACU or a more safe approach.

No matter what, a OC nerf would only benefit FA and thats the only thing we should care about. Making this game a bit more interesting by adding another layer of decision making and allowing T2/T3 land play styles to be a bit more viable.

If you still disagree and think OC in its current state is balanced, then we don't need to talk this out. But i really would like to hear why you think that for FA it's balanced ("because TA...." has nothing to with FA so please don't say that again) so i can at least say "i disagree" instead of having to,from my perspective, speak to a wall. Thank you.

[TA4Life]

And how any OC nerf would endorse turtle gameplay is beyond me.

At least Pavese admitted it. I won't be able to help your screwed up understanding of the game. I advise you to play the game some more.