Giving Seraphim a unique advantage

[FunkOff]

Seraphim is in a bind: Aside from the tech three sub hunter and the experimental units, Seraphim have no units that are unique to their own faction. What's worse is that, usually, the units they have are worse than faction equivalents. Their tech 2 gunship doesn't have splash like cybran's and cannot carry units like UEF's. Their cruiser has the lowest health of all cruisers and has no gun that can attack land or seas units and its bombardment weapon is stopped by a single TMD. Their mobile shield has the highest energy cost and the highest mass cost per shield HP provided. Seraphim has the worst torpedo bomber by a mile because it's the only one that can be stopped by torp defense. Their tech 3 direct fire unit is the slowest of the harb/loyalist/titan group and has the shortest range of the harb/brick/percival group. Aside from the land scout, seraphim units have special abilities like being able to transport units outside that role (UEF tech 2 gunship), inherent stealth (cybran tech 3 air, tech 2 subs), jamming (Cybran tech 3 gunship, uef frigate, uef combat engineer), torpedo defense on units not normally equipped with it (Aeon frigate), personal shields (harbinger, ACUs, Titan, etc). (The T2 destroyer submerging doesn't count because that just turns it from a shitty destroyer into a shittier sub.) Seraphim has no unique abilities, very few unique strengths, and nothing it does that better than other factions.

So I propose giving Seraphim a unique advantage that no other factions have: Regeneration on all units (aside from the ACU... which already has regen, and not including structures or experimentals) I'd make it modest... a half a percent a second, rounded to the nearest whole. For tech 1 units, this is 1-2 hp per second and won't change the balance at tech 1 much. For Tech 2, this will start to be significant. Illshovas (T2 bot) will have 13 hp/sec regen and gunships will have 5 hp/sec regen. Destroyers will have 35 HP/sec regen. At tech 3, this will also be significant, with battleships having he highest regen of 245 per second.

To put these numbers into perspective, a tech 1 UEF tank has 24 DPS. A Tech 1 UEF mobile AA has 16 DPS. Tech 2 bots and gunships will not have enough regen to out-heal the DPS from even ONE basic, tech 1 unit attacking them. Similarly, tech three ranks with 34 regen will survive only slightly longer against units like the UEF Percival, with its 400 DPS. The primary advantage in such a regen is not in combat, but outside of combat: In a little over three minutes, any seraphim unit will completely heal itself.

Thoughts?

[pip]

In my opinion, it's a brilliant idea. It not only fits the faction (cf. the ACU restoration field), it would easily fix it without having to tweak each and every tech level. It balances out the weakest faction with a unique ability that is easily understandable by anyone.

Besides, there are at least two other advantages : assuming this regen stacks properly with the restoration fields, it would make these upgrades actually worth using : units with very good regen near ACU ; assuming it properly stacks with veterancy, it would make the faction very special to use : you would baby sit your veteran units much more because they would have a really good regeneration rate. This faction is supposed to be about that : fewer but stronger units.

EDIT: After thinking a bit, your value is too high, because we shouldn't forget raised hp thanks to veterancy.
For instance, the battleship at veterancy 5 has 73500 HP, and would have near 400 HP regen per sec (this is too high).
Make it 0.3% and it won't go over board for any unit, at any hp value. The aforementioned LV5 battleship would have around 250 HP per sec. But it needs to kill 160 units to achieve that number. It would start with a more reasonable 147 HP per sec regen.

T1 units would have 1 HP / sec.
T2 gunships would have 3 hp / sec.
Ilshavoh would start at 8 HP /sec up to 11+10= 21 HP /sec with level 5 veterancy (regen need to stack). This value is reasonable and would be doubled with Restoration field II.
T2 Destroyers would start at a reasonable 20 HP regen per sec up to 31+25 =56 if they achieve lv 5 veterancy. With the influence of Restoration field II, a LV5 Destroyers would have 31+25 + 80 = 136 HP per sec. But it needs to kill 80 units and to remain near the ACU, so these are serious limitations.

It is necessary to limit the starting regen bonus in order to make it stack with Restoration field I and II without making the combination imba with any unit.

[uberge3k]

An interesting idea to be sure, but I simply don't see how it could be balanced.

This is a *huge* advantage that completely changes the game dynamics. Now, hit-and-run attacks will be amazingly effective, as you can simply run away for a few minutes to fully regenerate your army's HP.

One of the core tenants of SCFA's game balance has always been "don't start a fight you can't win". With seraphim, this is now reversed... "hit and run as often as you can". Assuming two equal armies, sera can attack and then retreat; if the enemy lets them go, sera wins as they have regen and the other faction doesn't. If the enemy follows, sera *still* wins as the wreck field will now be closer to their side, and whatever reinforcements were on the way.

As for Sera's "unique advantages"...

- Best T1 mobile artillery, by a huge margin.
- Excellent T1 mobile scout.
- Best T1 and T2 transports.
- Best T2 bot, again by quite a large margin.
- One of the only two factions with hover flak.
- Best late-game shield unit. When you need dozens of shields to protect an exp I would much rather have a sera T3 shield, as they are much easier to micro.
- Best stationary shields of any faction.
- Excellent sniper bot and great T3 tank. I don't know how you can claim they're the "worst" when compared to the brick, as they're actually a much better value: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 05,XSL0303 Remember that due to the mass difference you're comparing 2 bricks to 3 Oothums. Oothums are slightly better in every way; faster, stronger, more DPS...
- Fantastic land and air experimentals.

If seraphim gets more "unique advantages" then Cybran should get something cool too... maybe full stealth and cloaking on all units?


Standard disclaimer: This is the personal opinion of uberge3k, and would have been presented the same way no matter who came up with the idea in question. The above opinion is in no way "refusing to agree with <random topic poster> on everything", simply "refusing to agree with ideas that uberge3k believes to be ill-advised". We would like to take this opportunity to remind everyone that this is the balance ideas forum, not the "ideas that have a nonzero chance of being in an official patch at some time" forum, as this is not the case.

Have a nice day!

[FunkOff]

This is a *huge* advantage that completely changes the game dynamics. Now, hit-and-run attacks will be amazingly effective, as you can simply run away for a few minutes to fully regenerate your army's HP.
[/i]

I think "amazingly effective" is a bit of a stretch. Remember, the ACU has a regen field that provides all units near the ACU with a +5.6% per second health regen. This upgrade is never used because it is absolute garbage despite its low cost. Further, I think you overestimate how easy it is to keep units alive. In tech 1 vs tech 1 battles, how many damaged units could you reasonably expect to evacuate? FA pathing isn't fantastic, remember....

But yes, the larger units will have the most to gain, particularly naval units. Seraphim T1 and T2 naval units are by far the worst, however, so I think this balances out. And running away is fine, but it's not like torpedo bombers can't catch them.

One of the core tenants of SCFA's game balance has always been "don't start a fight you can't win". With seraphim, this is now reversed... "hit and run as often as you can". Assuming two equal armies, sera can attack and then retreat; if the enemy lets them go, sera wins as they have regen and the other faction doesn't. If the enemy follows, sera *still* wins as the wreck field will now be closer to their side, and whatever reinforcements were on the way.

The "don't start a fight you can't win" bit revolves around the tricky definition of winning... so, with a new regen in mind, I don't think it changes a bit. Besides, with a regen rate of pip's 0.3% (which I like his arguments for), that's about 5 and a half minutes to fully regen a damaged unit. In most games, that's enough time to make the unit obsolete.

As for Sera's "unique advantages"...

- Best T1 mobile artillery, by a huge margin.

Also most expensive, by a huge margin.

- Excellent T1 mobile scout.

No lab, and no Ghetto gunship.

- Best T1 and T2 transports.

Because everybody uses transports :-p

- Best T2 bot, again by quite a large margin.

Gets kited by other T2 bots and owned outright by obsidians.

- One of the only two factions with hover flak.

Not a unique advantage if it's one of two :-p

- Best late-game shield unit. When you need dozens of shields to protect an exp I would much rather have a sera T3 shield, as they are much easier to micro.

The T3 mobile shield provides 10,000 hp for 840 mass, or 12 hp per mass. Compare this to the parashield, which is not even the best T2 shield, which provides 29 hp per mass. The T3 shield is less efficient than lower-tech level equivalents.

- Best stationary shields of any faction.

"Best" meaning highest shield strength? Yes. But what about shield strength to cost ratio? That puts it among the worst because its cost is so high.

- Excellent sniper bot and great T3 tank. I don't know how you can claim they're the "worst" when compared to the brick, as they're actually a much better value: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 05,XSL0303 Remember that due to the mass difference you're comparing 2 bricks to 3 Oothums. Oothums are slightly better in every way; faster, stronger, more DPS...

If Cybran/UEF only had the heavy bot or only had the fast bot, the Othuum would be good. However, just like tech 2 land, they had the advantage of diversity that allow them the strategic initiative to use either very fast or very tough units. Further, the additional range on Bricks is huge. Although 3 othuums will beat 2 bricks if the bricks are standing still (1 othuum remains, half health), 2 bricks will beat 3 othuums by a WIDE margin if they kite for a bit... both bricks will survive. That, to you, is a great tech 3 tank? One that gets absolutely pwned by other tech 3 units?

- Fantastic land and air experimentals.

Yes, the Ythotha is fantastic if you love losing your entire army just because your experimental was sniped. That death weapon is just harsh.

Seraphim absolutely needs this regen.

[pip]

Of course, Ubergeek, your concern about balance is very much justified. The exact value for this general buff has to be calculated thoroughly. Make it too anecdotic, it's like doing nothing ; make it too good : it will make Seraphim the strongest faction.

Since it's a general buff, and susceptible to stack with other sources of regeneration, it has to be limited and to be inferior to the restoration field I (which you pay something for). That's why I believe 0.3% is a good value. It's about half of the restoration field I regen, which no one uses because the regen is not worth it. But it would be useful for Seraphim navy and also around late T2 stage of a game, where you begin to have more units that would benefit from a small regen.

Funkoff explained why Seraphim need something like that. And I think it's brilliant because it saves the trouble to touch any other aspect of any Seraphim unit (except ACU overpriced super weapon upgrade). The T1 sub, the hover tank, the torp bomber would still suck ; they would still lack many options other factions have ; they would still have the most expensive units and / or structures. But these drawbacks would be all in all balanced out by this single advantage.

A single, carefully chosen value would fix an entire faction : that is genius.

[uberge3k]

I think "amazingly effective" is a bit of a stretch. Remember, the ACU has a regen field that provides all units near the ACU with a +5.6% per second health regen. This upgrade is never used because it is absolute garbage despite its low cost. Further, I think you overestimate how easy it is to keep units alive. In tech 1 vs tech 1 battles, how many damaged units could you reasonably expect to evacuate? FA pathing isn't fantastic, remember....

The upgrade is never used primarily due to it's tiny range and necessity of being right next to your ACU. It's simply never cost effective as you'd have to give up gun to use it.

Your opinion of "amazingly effective is a stretch" is a stretch. Hit and run attacks with any sized groups of t1 would be very effective - if the goal is to simply cause an equal amount of damage to the enemy's army it would be very easy to do so. It's effectiveness will increase exponentially with T2 and T3 units... and T4 would just be even better. If you'd like to disprove this (seeing as the burden of proof is on yourself to prove that this is a good idea), feel free to make a mod for it and we'll test it.

But yes, the larger units will have the most to gain, particularly naval units. Seraphim T1 and T2 naval units are by far the worst, however, so I think this balances out. And running away is fine, but it's not like torpedo bombers can't catch them.

If it's primary reason is for buffing the "UP" navy (something which we have yet to even see conclusive proof of), why not only have it apply only to navy?..

The "don't start a fight you can't win" bit revolves around the tricky definition of winning... so, with a new regen in mind, I don't think it changes a bit. Besides, with a regen rate of pip's 0.3% (which I like his arguments for), that's about 5 and a half minutes to fully regen a damaged unit. In most games, that's enough time to make the unit obsolete.

"Winning" in this case simply means coming out ahead mass wise. Could you explain how it does not change? And if it doesn't change anything, what exactly is the point of this change... shouldn't all factions get it in that case?

- Best T1 mobile artillery, by a huge margin.

Also most expensive, by a huge margin.

6 mass more. 54 to 48. Therefore, this is untrue, unless you also think Cybran should get a similar buff since their arty is so expensive and useless? http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 03,URL0103

- Excellent T1 mobile scout.

No lab, and no Ghetto gunship.

How that is relevant to the T1 scout is beyond me. Besides, it's faction diversity. Also, in your very next point...

- Best T1 and T2 transports.

Because everybody uses transports :-p

Funny how you treat the lack of a ghetto gunship as a negative... and then proceed to sarcastically claim that transports don't matter because they are underused. Should I ignore the cognitive dissonance and just cancel those two points out?

- Best T2 bot, again by quite a large margin.

Gets kited by other T2 bots and owned outright by obsidians.

Since, by your definition, a "huge margin" = "6 mass", I could twist that in any way I felt like... Since I prefer to use actual facts and logic in my arguments, I'll instead politely ask for proof of your claims. Ishies might get kited, but you can only kite for so long until they are massacred.

- One of the only two factions with hover flak.

Not a unique advantage if it's one of two :-p[/quote]
If you take the literal definition of "unique" then that sarcastic and inflammatory statement (used as an excuse for a logical counterpoint to my obvious list of sera's advantages, not truly "unique" features) is technically true... at which point I am obliged to respond with my own sarcastic and inflammatory statement of the following:

Every unit of the Seraphim is unique. For example, their T1 tank has a different name and model than UEF's. Using this logic, your entire thread is invalid.

- Best late-game shield unit. When you need dozens of shields to protect an exp I would much rather have a sera T3 shield, as they are much easier to micro.

The T3 mobile shield provides 10,000 hp for 840 mass, or 12 hp per mass. Compare this to the parashield, which is not even the best T2 shield, which provides 29 hp per mass. The T3 shield is less efficient than lower-tech level equivalents.

The reason I prefer sera shields is that they are easy to micro and guarenteed to protect your experimental. Try managing a comparable number of parashields to T3 mobile shields. Late game when you can easily support 50+ T2 mobile shields, there's a point where it's simply ineffective as they cannot all cover the experimental and the pathfinding starts crying in agony.

- Best stationary shields of any faction.

"Best" meaning highest shield strength? Yes. But what about shield strength to cost ratio? That puts it among the worst because its cost is so high.

Faction diversity. When the total area of your base is limited, I'd much rather have concentrated and more effective shields rather than more less-powerful shields. Just as I might rather have more T2 subhunters so I can spread them out and cover more ground, instead of more powerful yet more expensive T3 subhunters.

Using your logic, T3 subhunters are bad because they're more expensive and there is no less-expensive unit which fits the same roll.

- Excellent sniper bot and great T3 tank. I don't know how you can claim they're the "worst" when compared to the brick, as they're actually a much better value: http://www.faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/su ... 05,XSL0303 Remember that due to the mass difference you're comparing 2 bricks to 3 Oothums. Oothums are slightly better in every way; faster, stronger, more DPS...

If Cybran/UEF only had the heavy bot or only had the fast bot, the Othuum would be good. However, just like tech 2 land, they had the advantage of diversity that allow them the strategic initiative to use either very fast or very tough units. Further, the additional range on Bricks is huge. Although 3 othuums will beat 2 bricks if the bricks are standing still (1 othuum remains, half health), 2 bricks will beat 3 othuums by a WIDE margin if they kite for a bit... both bricks will survive. That, to you, is a great tech 3 tank? One that gets absolutely pwned by other tech 3 units?

Bricks can't kite as they are slower.

If you think the oothum "gets absolutely pwned" why not buff it? If you have such conclusive proof that it is so UP (which could be the only plausible reason you could be making such claims), why not recommend it be buffed instead of every unit at once in the entire faction?

- Fantastic land and air experimentals.

Yes, the Ythotha is fantastic if you love losing your entire army just because your experimental was sniped. That death weapon is just harsh.

That death weapon is equally effective against your enemy's base and army as well.

Using the same logic, you must not like power generators much either. Their death weapons are just harsh.

Seraphim absolutely needs this regen.

Seeing as the burden of proof is on you to prove this, I would welcome the creation of a mod to test it. Until then you cannot conclusively claim that it is "absolutely needed", especially considering Seraphim, as a faction, has been getting along just fine for the past years.

[uberge3k]

Of course, Ubergeek, your concern about balance is very much justified. The exact value for this general buff has to be calculated thoroughly. Make it too anecdotic, it's like doing nothing ; make it too good : it will make Seraphim the strongest faction.

I agree. I simply don't believe it will be possible to balance it in this way.. especially seeing as Seraphim has been getting along fairly well all this time. Look at the numbers of the most played factions. Sera has just a tiny amount more losses than wins. If they were indeed so UP, the numbers would show this.

[FunkOff]

The upgrade is never used primarily due to it's tiny range and necessity of being right next to your ACU. It's simply never cost effective as you'd have to give up gun to use it.

Hmm. The range is only 15 (compared to tech 1 tanks, which have range of 18). That is a very tiny range indeed. And yes, losing the option for gun is another important reason that nobody uses regen. Nonetheless, I think the regen aura is still a good case study because it's the only one... no other units in the game provide regen buffs to other units.

Hit and run attacks with any sized groups of t1 would be very effective - if the goal is to simply cause an equal amount of damage to the enemy's army it would be very easy to do so. It's effectiveness will increase exponentially with T2 and T3 units... and T4 would just be even better

For one, I specifically excepted tech 4 units in the original post. Did you even read it? For two, larger, tougher units are also slower and have more difficulty hitting and running. And do you really think 1 hp/sec on tech 1 units would be OP?

If it's primary reason is for buffing the "UP" navy (something which we have yet to even see conclusive proof of), why not only have it apply only to navy?..

This is another option, of course, but I do not prefer it because it doesn't make up for Seraphim's lack of options on land and in the air. Remember, most maps don't even have water.

"Winning" in this case simply means coming out ahead mass wise. Could you explain how it does not change? And if it doesn't change anything, what exactly is the point of this change... shouldn't all factions get it in that case?

I'm not following... What are you trying to say?

6 mass more. 54 to 48. Therefore, this is untrue, unless you also think Cybran should get a similar buff since their arty is so expensive and useless?

I vaguely recall posting a topic where I did state that yes, I believe the Cybran tech 1 arty needs a buff. However, try to stay on topic as we're talking about Seraphim.

How that is relevant to the T1 scout is beyond me.

No lab is more of a hurt than a good scout is a help.

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Funny how you treat the lack of a ghetto gunship as a negative... and then proceed to sarcastically claim that transports don't matter because they are underused.   Should I ignore the cognitive dissonance and just cancel those two points out?

Allow me to clarify: *nobody uses transports to transport :p

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Since, by your definition, a "huge margin" = "6 mass", I could twist that in any way I felt like... Since I prefer to use actual facts and logic in my arguments, I'll instead politely ask for proof of your claims.  Ishies might get kited, but you can only kite for so long until they are massacred.

Ah, yes, "politely" apparently means "condescendingly" in the uber dictionary... nonetheless, Illshova max speed is 2.5 and Hoplite max speed is 3.6. Hoplites can kite them forever.

If you take the literal definition of "unique" then that sarcastic and inflammatory statement (used as an excuse for a logical counterpoint to my obvious list of sera's advantages, not truly "unique" features) is technically true... at which point I am obliged to respond with my own sarcastic and inflammatory statement of the following:

Every unit of the Seraphim is unique. For example, their T1 tank has a different name and model than UEF's. Using this logic, your entire thread is invalid.

Going by your logic in the hydro upgrade topic, new models/bps/code do not, a new unit, make. Besides, I said "unique advantage", not "unique unit".

The reason I prefer sera shields is that they are easy to micro and guarenteed to protect your experimental. Try managing a comparable number of parashields to T3 mobile shields. Late game when you can easily support 50+ T2 mobile shields, there's a point where it's simply ineffective as they cannot all cover the experimental and the pathfinding starts crying in agony.

This may be relevant in team games, but is not in 1v1 where experimentals are rarely seen.

Faction diversity. When the total area of your base is limited, I'd much rather have concentrated and more effective shields rather than more less-powerful shields. Just as I might rather have more T2 subhunters so I can spread them out and cover more ground, instead of more powerful yet more expensive T3 subhunters.

Using your logic, T3 subhunters are bad because they're more expensive and there is no less-expensive unit which fits the same roll.

T3 sub hunters are only better than T2 sub hunters because they have more damage per cost, roughly the same hp per cost, and more range. If they had all the same stats but less damage per cost, basically the same as ow their shields are, they would be worse than T2 sub hunters.

Bricks can't kite as they are slower.

Bricks can kite for a short time. Specifically, the speed difference is that the Othuum is .5 faster, and the Brick has 10 more range. That means the Brick can kite for 20 seconds. At 400 damage a second, that's 8000 damage, per brick, that a group of bricks can do before a group of othuums can even start shooting.

If you think the oothum "gets absolutely pwned" why not buff it? If you have such conclusive proof that it is so UP (which could be the only plausible reason you could be making such claims), why not recommend it be buffed instead of every unit at once in the entire faction?

Because it is not just the othuum that is weak. Besides, I'm sure if I made a post about it, you'd argue that the othuum is awesome... an assertion I make based upon similar assertions, from you, in THIS topic.

That death weapon is equally effective against your enemy's base and army as well.

Using the same logic, you must not like power generators much either. Their death weapons are just harsh.

Power generators aren't offensive units, so they are easier to protect. Also, I've never lost a game because my acu was killed by an exploding power generator. I did lose one, however, when my ythotha's death weapon got my ACU. (It was othuums + Ythotha + ACU against some Illshovahs + Ythotha... took out his Ythotha and he took out mine.... ACU lived but could not escape the quantum creature.)

But yes, the Ythotha death weapon isn't exclusively a disadvantage because I've used it offensively as well. It just doesn't make the Ythotha fantastic.

Seeing as the burden of proof is on you to prove this, I would welcome the creation of a mod to test it. Until then you cannot conclusively claim that it is "absolutely needed", especially considering Seraphim, as a faction, has been getting along just fine for the past years.

I think I'm going to make a mod that includes several of the changes I've discussed, including this one. Also, seeing as you love being pedantic, I'll clarify again: Seraphim absolutely needs a buff like this regen.

[FunkOff]

Of course, Ubergeek, your concern about balance is very much justified. The exact value for this general buff has to be calculated thoroughly. Make it too anecdotic, it's like doing nothing ; make it too good : it will make Seraphim the strongest faction.

I agree. I simply don't believe it will be possible to balance it in this way.. especially seeing as Seraphim has been getting along fairly well all this time. Look at the numbers of the most played factions. Sera has just a tiny amount more losses than wins. If they were indeed so UP, the numbers would show this.

You said it yourself earlier today: People don't like losing. Based upon this, the low number of people who player Seraphim is what shows that they are UP.

[Gowerly]

I like this idea. Sera needs something like this to be more effective.

Looking at some numbers of 0.3% regen:
For a unit to be effective at any form of hit and run tactic it will need to wait up to 5 minutes between attacks. This doesn't sound, to me, like it will change any form of hit and run tactics.

6 mass more. 54 to 48

54 to 36 for 2 of the factions
54 to 48 for one of them

54 -> 36 is 50% more cost for the arty. That's HUGE.
54 -> 48 is 12.5% more cost for the arty. Again, that's quite significant. Medusa is also underrated.

The whole idea of "hit and runs" in supcom is also a bit of a fallacy. In most cases, if one player splits his army up to attack, the other player can just go and kill them due to having the larger main army. Also, I've never seen that many mini-engagements that work out that well. Usually it's attacking an undefended area, so no damage is sustained, or the attacking army dies during the attack. Also, if regeneration actually had that effect, once you had a group of units with level 1 veterancy it would be autowin, no?

In general, a t1 unit doing 24 dps will kill a thaam in 12 seconds. With 0.3% hitpoint regens, it will have 3.6% additional hitpoints in that time. This will add 1 second to the time it takes to kill it. Obviously reduced if it's 2v1 or whatever. In reality, engagements are many units vs many units. Adding regen to the sera units will promote focus firing of units, which will negate a lot of the regeneration of the sera units.

I agree that this would be a cool change. 0.25% - 0.3% regen as a start would be a great way to test it. I would prefer it was useless and buffed than was super amazing then nerfed.