The Corsair's anti-ground weapon

[FunkOff]

This topic is based off a post by Lu:

I know the topic is about gunships, but i'd like to extand this to T2 air :

I discovered yesterday how imba could be T2 cybran fightbomber. Before it was ok, but with a high level of microgestion, this unit can shoot without being attacked by AA

REPLAY: http://scbirds.free.fr/ftp/Replays/Lu_X ... SCFAReplay

(it's a 3599 game, but it might be so more imba in 3608, and concerning this game, i of course deserved to lose it)
(i know you're many cybran players here, so don't flog me too high when i critic one of your babies )

One of the sollution would be to reduce the range of shooting maybe.

What Lu is talking about in this post is that ZLO uses a combination of move, attack move and stop orders to allow his Cybran tech 2 Fighter Bombers, also called Corsairs, to attack targets without flying over them. Additionally, because the Corsair's anti-ground weapon has a random of 45 compared to tech 2 mobile flak's range of only 40, this allows the Corsair to kite groups of anti-air and kill them without receiving any damage in return. To watch this in the replay, skip to about 25 minutes in.

Before I change anything about Corsairs for the patch, this must be established as being a bug, rather than a balance issue. The reason is that I can fix bugs, but balance is off limits. Further, due to the nature of this issue, any changes I make will impact balance in some way. Specifically, I'd have to mess with the weapon properties and the projectiles physics to make sure that the Corsair behaves more like other tech 1/2/3 bombers and in a way that is not exploitable like this.

However, I expect there to be come disputes about this. In favor of the bug argument, clearly using a T2 fighter bomber to counter AA units is unintended by the creators and abusive. Further, it requires a great deal of micro and doesn't contribute to the strategy-centered focus on FAF.

On the balance side of the argument, you can make the comparison to tech 1 bombers double dropping, and that it adds skill to be able to micro bombers in this way, and that doing so distracts from macro management and other areas of battle. Or, you could make the argument that because of the Corsair's unique firing attributes that causes it to sometimes missiles small, stationary targets that this makes up for that weakness.

So... What do you guys think? Is this issue bug or balance?

[uberge3k]

Do a find-replace on what you've written with "Corsair" and "Aurora" and it works exactly the same, barring some touchups regarding AA... the only difference being that Aurora micro is far more prevalent than Corsair micro.

Unless we're going to classify the Aurora's additional range compared to it's counters as a bug, I wouldn't classify the Corair's as a bug either.

Especially seeing as this is only a single replay, vs the thousands you can find with Aurora's extra range being used.

[edit]: And shouldn't this be in the "polls" section?... or are you trying to get around that limitation by asking for opinions via the "raise your hand if you think it's a bug or a balance issue" rather than a polling mechanism?

[Lu_Xun_17]

thx for the topic funk.

I don't think we can call it a bug, it's good to get units more powerfull when well microed, but here with corsairs it became nearly unstoppable without T3 air.

The problem is that any attempt of land attack, even with an accurate number of flak, won't be able to survive out of the base, cause flaks will be sniped without killing any corsair, and then those will be able to finish the land units.

I should make some tests but it might also be really strong against navy.

Uber, you definitly can't compare this to aurora range ...

[FunkOff]

Do a find-replace on what you've written with "Corsair" and "Aurora" and it works exactly the same, barring some touchups regarding AA... the only difference being that Aurora micro is far more prevalent than Corsair micro.

Unless we're going to classify the Aurora's additional range compared to it's counters as a bug, I wouldn't classify the Corair's as a bug either.

Especially seeing as this is only a single replay, vs the thousands you can find with Aurora's extra range being used.

[edit]: And shouldn't this be in the "polls" section?... or are you trying to get around that limitation by asking for opinions via the "raise your hand if you think it's a bug or a balance issue" rather than a polling mechanism?

I don't really agree with the comparison of the Aurora... Auroras are helpless against air (corsairs are not) and some land units out-range them (no land units with AA out-range corsair). I think the "it takes micro" argument is better. That said, I don't really have an opinion on the matter. It doesn't seem right, but I've only seen one person complain about it.

[pip]

Is it possible to give some inertia to the bomber before it can actually stop (after the weapon is fired)? It would make it harder to abuse if you have to come quite close to the flak you're trying to snipe because of that inertia.

[Gowerly]

Chances are this will only be an issue if your opponent has air control, which would mean you're in trouble anyway.
Also, at what range to t1/t3/t4 bombers drop?

[Armmagedon]

only take a million of ints, they are ultra cheaps compared with t2 air , and t2 corsairs cant be microed vs ints,
the trying of pwn t2 bombers with AA is a bad idea, spam ints is the best way, AA is only used for have the enemy air out of your territory, but its easy micro vs AA with all factions

[FunkOff]

Is it possible to give some inertia to the bomber before it can actually stop (after the weapon is fired)? It would make it harder to abuse if you have to come quite close to the flak you're trying to snipe because of that inertia.

Well,my first attempt at fixing this would be to make the weapon affected by gravity and not accelerate. This way, the corsair would be dropping the projectiles like bombs rather than shooting them like rockets. To do what you wanted.... assuming it's possible, I'd have to mess with the air acceleration and I don't know how that would impact other performance.

[Lu_Xun_17]

only take a million of ints, they are ultra cheaps compared with t2 air , and t2 corsairs cant be microed vs ints,
the trying of pwn t2 bombers with AA is a bad idea, spam ints is the best way, AA is only used for have the enemy air out of your territory, but its easy micro vs AA with all factions

believe me those corsairs pown T1 ints, so more than they often can withdraw on some T2 flaks when you send ints.

[noobymcnoobcake]

I think the counter to this would be increase turning radius. This is why torpedo bombers cant do this vs frigates. they just turn so horribly.