Carriers auto-attack with aircraft

[FunkOff]

Okay, it has been my observation that nobody really uses carriers like you would expect... you know, as a mobile staging facility for aircraft, from which aircraft attack and return to refuel/repair/rearm/etc. So I'm suggesting we change that.

Basically, I'm going to make carriers able to auto-build a small airforce of 20 interceptors and 20 torpedo bombers. These units will be built while the carrier is able to move and shoot and will cost normal mass/energy costs of these units. Then, when you order the carrier to attack something, either sea or air, it will automatically send out the units to destroy the thing you clicked. When the air units are destroyed, they will automatically be replaced (costing normal mass/energy). When the target is destroyed, the units will return to the carrier, be repaired/refuled and ready for another target.

Thoughts?

[Pavese]

instead: let carriers be able to build while moving kthxbye. Also: why can carrier not build all air?

[FunkOff]

instead: let carriers be able to build while moving kthxbye. Also: why can carrier not build all air?

The first one is impossible... essentially, because building is it's own order (same reason you cannot upgrade ACU while moving) and because the thing you are building cannot move while being built. Carriers can not build all air because GPG set restrictions on the kind of air they can build... because they want you to have a reason to build an air fac.

[Batmansrueckkehr]

i think it is ok that the carrier cant build all air. would be great when the carrier can build air while moving.
the auto attack idea, hm... i would prefer that u can chose all units of the same type at the cargo screen of the carrier. so if you have asf on the carrier and u want to intercept bombers or whatever air, just click (shift +asf etc) and u can attack with all the asf. same with torp bombers or t2 bombers. would be nice to be able to group those planes inside the carrier. that way i could make small squadrons maybe 5 torps for each enemy cruisers etc. - when finished the "grouping" launch them and attack.
if u do that auto attack thing, what happens if u attack some kind of navy - are t2 bombers + torp bombers + gunships starting? what if i just want to attack with the carrier enemy air on its own (by microing on those with less hp or whatever) and launch its air later to have an advantage (because of escorting cruisers etc.) is there a chance which i can chose if its air should auto attack or not?

[noobymcnoobcake]

-The best thing would be to make them auto build while moving. but that is not possible as it is hardcoded into the game engine.
-I think would be great for a carrier to replenish the aircraft it lost automaticaly. - toggle behaviour
-I think its also a good idea for a carrier to move only when its finished its thing its building so it dont canel it and waste mass
-I think a good change would be for all air units exept mercies and transports to have 5 mins of fuel time. This will mean carriers are used as at the moment the game ends before T3 air runs out of fuel.
-I like the idea of a carrier launching its aircraft when you click attack with it but could be annoying wheen theres tons of cruises around and you select whole fleet attack. Prehaps there could be toggle for this behaviour.

[Mr Pinguin]

It's an interesting idea (reminds me of Starcraft Carriers..), but I think it's a bit weird and maybe outside the realm of what people expect (and want?) from SupCom gameplay. As others have said, the really key thing would just be finding a way* to let them build while moving.

That's their biggest limitation. If you have a fleet it generally needs to be on the move, and if you have a carrier it generally needs to stay with your fleet for protection and to offer its own AA.

However, if we ever decide to nerf factory assist from engineers (not completely, just a bit..) then the build power from carriers will become much more useful. Even in 3603, carriers are already a nice option because they don't cost quite as much energy and they have decent AA. I actually think that carriers are already cost-effective in 3603, but T3 naval yards are precious and T3 ships build so slowly that most players probably don't want to waste time with a carrier in their queue when other T3 ships are so important.

However, if T2 torp bombers start to get used more then carriers have a nice role there (especially if we buffed Torp bomber HP so they have more chance to survive and return home for repairs..)

If you were to nerf fuel times, then carriers definitely have a use on larger maps.

The secondary 'support' functions of carriers can also be emphasized more. (The Cybran's TMD could be buffed to make it more useful vs anti-ship missiles. Their intel could be buffed, and perhaps cruisers nerfed, to emphasize their role as a command ship.)

Your AA range buff to 110 also adds a big advantage for carriers.

*It actually seems like the building-while-moving could be simulated with a script that registers build commands (is this possible?) then virtually 'builds' the unit by counting down on a timer and deducting resources, and then it could add the unit to the carrier's hangar when it's complete. I have no idea if it's possible to add/create units in a carrier's hangar via script, and I'm definitely not enough of a LUA scripter to know how to do the rest either, but other stuff I've seen suggests that this might well be feasible.. As an alternative, could we give carriers some sort of 'burst production' mode with a cooldown? If they could temporarily have a build rate of 500 or 1000, then they could stop moving to spam air, and then start moving around while they wear down their cooldown. This is a bit weird for Supcom, and it'd give carriers a unique emergency response role, but it might be interesting.

[FunkOff]

*It actually seems like the building-while-moving could be simulated with a script that registers build commands (is this possible?) then virtually 'builds' the unit by counting down on a timer and deducting resources, and then it could add the unit to the carrier's hangar when it's complete. I have no idea if it's possible to add/create units in a carrier's hangar via script, and I'm definitely not enough of a LUA scripter to know how to do the rest either, but other stuff I've seen suggests that this might well be feasible.. As an alternative, could we give carriers some sort of 'burst production' mode with a cooldown? If they could temporarily have a build rate of 500 or 1000, then they could stop moving to spam air, and then start moving around while they wear down their cooldown. This is a bit weird for Supcom, and it'd give carriers a unique emergency response role, but it might be interesting.

This is actually really simple to do... and is what I did with the UEF ACU drone upgrade to have them auto-rebuild. However, in order to "virtually build" something off a build command, even if I stop the build command and replace it with one that allows the carrier to move, there will still be a brief moment when the carrier's move command is over-written by the build command. When this happens, the carrier will stop moving/attacking or whatever it was doing. I can make it so you can immediately make it start moving again, but this will repeat for every new plane it builds.... you want to re-issue move orders to your carrier every 10 seconds?

[noobymcnoobcake]

If you could get carriers to build on the move they would be much more usefull and if you also decreased fuel time of most aircraft to 5 mins they will seen in all late game navies

[FunkOff]

If you could get carriers to build on the move they would be much more usefull and if you also decreased fuel time of most aircraft to 5 mins they will seen in all late game navies

Well, unfortunately that is an engine limitation.

[Mr Pinguin]

This is actually really simple to do... and is what I did with the UEF ACU drone upgrade to have them auto-rebuild. However, in order to "virtually build" something off a build command, even if I stop the build command and replace it with one that allows the carrier to move, there will still be a brief moment when the carrier's move command is over-written by the build command. When this happens, the carrier will stop moving/attacking or whatever it was doing. I can make it so you can immediately make it start moving again, but this will repeat for every new plane it builds.... you want to re-issue move orders to your carrier every 10 seconds?

Hmm.

It sounds like you're saying that every time I click on a plane in the carrier's build menu, the carrier will be interrupted?
I thought the current behavior in FA was that you could queue planes while the carrier was moving and it didn't interrupt the ship's move order(s). Instead, the planes just sit in the queue until the ship completes its previous move order, and then construction begins once the carrier has stopped moving.

I think the problem comes after the carrier has stopped moving and started construction. Once construction has started, any move/attack order will instantly cancel the current construction project and delete the entire queue. If the planes under construction were just paused, that wouldn't be so bad. And of course, if you could find a way to move the build queue to a 'virtual' queue before it's deleted, then that would be great.

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Yet another flaw with carriers is that planes can't seem to land on them when they're moving. This is incredibly tedious. I'd love to be able to send out torp bombers and then have them retreat to my carrier, but if my carrier is being chased by the enemy fleet then it can't afford to stop to pick up planes..