Supcom FA eco

[TA4Life]

Thought people might find these useful

[FunkOff]

In the first slide, what do M and S stand for?

Also, all three slides are a little hard to read.

[Moritz]

In the first slide, what do M and S stand for?

Also, all three slides are a little hard to read.

Mass and Storage?

[gasol]

Minutes and Seconds

[Rasmuffin]

1st of all: Awesome and I would love to know how you made those graphs using in game data. I would love to make my own graphs and present them here.
2nd: it is a little confusing but the first graph is assuming you have 6 t1 mexes and one commander i.e. the graph starts at 13 mass/second. The 1M 4S 1M means 1 mex to t2, 4 storage, 2nd mex to t2. the other case is 2 mexes t2 then 4 storage.

It is interesting to see that there is a point between 2 and 5 engineers where it is better to do 2M 4S instead of 1M 4S 1M.

Missing from this model (which is what I would love to measure more accurately) is the mass income that difference of 3 or 5 engineers could make. The measurements that I made a while back concluded that with a normal Patrol route in forest grants 1 mass/second and 10energy/second per t1 engineer. <- this is in its own forest, 2 in the same spot will not double it as it is using 360 degrees around it. This added in to the total mass and mass per second gained between using 5 engineers to build and 2 engineers to build should change the total mass gained to contradict the result of 5 engineers being more efficient:

3 engineers at 3mass/second for 11 minutes = 3*60*11 = 1980mass gained by 3 engies over 11 minutes assuming 1mass/second Now there is travel time involved and I believe my original measurements were total mass&energy gained on average from the center of a forest on setons over 2 minutes.

10570 2M, 4s, 5engies
10403 1M, 4s, 1M, 5engies
12191 2M, 4s, 2engies (1980 mass added)
11183 1M, 4s, 1M 2engines (1980 mass added)

This is what I would love to measure with the same tool that TA4Life used to get the graphs above. The main difference would be to shift the mass/second curves of the 2 engineers building by 3 mass/second.

The Model that would better describe the most efficient means of upgrading from t1 to t2 mexes would include the Opportunity cost of and engineer on patrol that could be assisting mexes or building storage. Important flaws in my described model would that each map would need to have an experimentally measured the amount of mass gained from reclaim. The other problem is that there needs to be an inclusion that there is a fixed rate of engineer production i.e. 1factory produces one engineer every 13 seconds (+unload time) and this dictates the total amount of build power possible to put towards upgrading mexes or reclaiming.

Anyway Love the mathematical modeling, and I would love to help prove the most efficient amount of engineers to upgrade mexes.

Edit note:
My personal opinion is that the most efficient mass upgrade route uses 2 factories of engineer production going on patrol in the forest while sequentially upgrading mexes (1 mex started, 30 some seconds later another one starts). The main goal that i go for in economy is making sure my sustained mass per second income is equal to the mass per second output i spend on the economy. The trick is filtering out the non-substained mass income i.e. allies bleeding front mass on setons and reclaims. The thing with reclaiming is that it shifts the mass per second income upwards, but the total mass income from it is a fixed total amount on the map.

[Rasmuffin]

In the first slide, what do M and S stand for?

Also, all three slides are a little hard to read.

Mass and Storage?

Minutes and Seconds

^ gotta love the attempts. they appeared while I was typing out my Wall of Text above. come on, look at it.
There is a big bump of mass/second at the beginning then there are 4 smaller bumps afterwards and another Mass/second increase for the second mex finishing.
The question needed to be asked and the graphs need to be clearer on what they show. But this speculation is just a little out there.

Anyway, enough of me talking I'm waiting for TA4Life to help get the tools he uses. Economics makes me Giddy with anticipation.

[TA4Life]

M stands for upgrading T1 mass extractor to T2 mass extractor
S stands for building mass storage around a T2 mass extractor

This is a simulation I made in excel based on build capacity and unit costs.(supplementing my Supcom FA cravings with excel)

I would love to be able to get actual data from real supcom fa games, but that seems to be difficult to do past the hotstats mod which makes a pretty, but for the most part useless representation of the data.

[TA4Life]

You got me dreaming about Supcom FA data again. Hotstats was suggested to me before but there are major problems
there:
can't save, can't change x axis, can't change possible functions, available functions explode and without being able to
zoom in on a small window most data is useless.

This raw data would be an excellent addition to supcom fa commentaries where the economy is very much hidden behind
the players' abilities. Analyzing economy stats at the end of a game and correlating data to different game events
(drops, pgen snipes, etc) would provide a more complete picture.

A lot would of course depend on what kind of raw data was obtained. At the bare minimum it would be nice to see
(player#, mass, energy, time) for all times between 0 and victory. It would be even more awesome to have (player#,
massIN, massOUT, energyIN, energyOUT, time). I think having things like #of engies, would get too crazy.

Imagine plotting player1_massIN(t)-player2_massIN(t) and player1_massOUT(t)-player2_massOUT(t) on the same plot.
Unlike hotstats functions, these will not explode unless the game is imba. Reclaims and power surges would be very
evident in these functions. Changes in sign of the massIN difference would correspond to game shifts. Changes in the massOUT difference could be interesting when observed together with military assaults, as one player stays organized while the other begins to panic.

Imagine being able to integrate these:
player1_mass_in_storage(time) = int(player1_massIN(t)-player1_massOUT(t), t=0..time)
player1_total_mass_inefficiency(time) = int(player1_mass_in_storage(time)/player1_massIN(t), t=0..time)
mass_differential(time) = int(player1_massIN(t)-player2_massIN(t), t=0..time)
add some differentiation:
player1_real_time_mass_inefficiency(time)=diff(player1_total_mass_inefficiency(time), t)

Imagine plotting massIN(t) for all the players in an x2 thermo on a log plot, each player would get their 3 exponential rate constants for the 3 different mass upgrading stages. They would know the winner before making any experimentals so they could start another game even sooner.

The factories in supcom stop using resources when the unit that they have made gets out of the factory. This means that each factory creates an oscillation in massOUT(time). The frequency of this oscillation corresponds to the time it takes to make the unit, therefore to the unit identity and the build capacity associated with that factory. This means that a Fourier transform of massOUT (energyOUT can work as well) over a given time interval would reveal all the different kinds of units being produced during that time interval. Imagine shifting the Fourier transform window in time, we would see some unit production seize and new production started, we would see shifts in build capacity given to the different projects. Mass or power stalls would show up as spectral shifts where all frequencies are decreased by the (mass income available/mass income required).
Setons air players would love to see the competing frequencies of their air factories as a function of time.

The possibilities are pretty wide open, except that we can't get that data. We are like mankind before we learned numbers, we can create some things based on our experience but we don't yet have a language with which we can show what we are doing.

[TnukSmasher3000]

Yo,

Excellent work, I love seeing how the theory manifests itself into a graph! On maps with zero reclaim, players should regard your above graphs as their new bible! One factor it may be difficult (if not impossible) to model for is the opportunity cost of the engineer reclaiming versus assisting the mex upgrade. Expressing that mathematically would be difficult as it's so heavily dependent on the type of reclaim, the distance between the reclaim and the method of reclamation (patrol/manual click/attack move from factory etc). On Setons for instance, it's my anecdotal experience that the most efficient way to tech hard and fast, is not to assist mex upgrades to tech 2 (beyond the 4 next to the commander start location). Rather, all the engineers should reclaim and more mexes should be upgraded at once.

[Iszh]

hey i have also something alike this, thats a info which i created for our teamspeak supcom channel
(but the values of building power of engi stations are 3599)
=============================================================================
Masse/Energie
Power Gen. T1 --- 3,75 M/E
Power Gen. T2 --- 2,40 M/E
Power Gen. T3 --- 1,30 M/E
Speicher lohnen sich wenn sie 2 Reaktoren T3 Berühren. 0,77 M/E bei nur einem Reaktor 1,5 M/E
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Masse/+1 Masseerzeugung
T1 Extractor --- 18,0 M/+ Speicher: 800 M/+
T2 Extractor --- 225 M/+ Speicher: 266,6 M/+
T3 Extractor --- 383,3 M/+ Speicher 88,9 M/+
T3 Mohu Mine ohne Vorbau von T1/T2 200 M/+
T2 Massewunder 453,3 M/+
T3 Massewunder 256,7 M/+
T3 Schmelzeneck 487 M/+
---------------------------------------------------------------------
T2 Massewunder: 1x T2 Energiegenerator + 3x T2 Massenschmelze
T3 Massewunder: 1x T3 Energiegenerator + 16x T2 Massenschmelze
T3 Schmelzeneck: 4x T3 Energiegenerator + 4x T3 Massenschmelze
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Masse/Baukraft
T1 Engi 10 M/BK
T2 Engi 16 M/BK
T3 Engi 33 M/BK
T1 Fabrik 11 M/BK
T2 Fabrik 25 M/BK
T3 Fabrik 69 M/BK
Cybran Techniker 22,5 M/BK -->addon 12 M/BK
UEF TEchniker 20 M/BK
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Support Commander Aeon
11200 Masse Kosten 14 Masse 1200 Energie 60 BK
1200 * 1,3 = 1560
14 * 380 = 5320
11200-6880 = 4320 Masse verbleiben als Reinkosten für den SACU die übrigen Kosten sind als
Ressourcenerweiterung mit Kosten von T3 abgerechnet.
.................
72 M/BK wenn man die verbleibenden Kosten auf BK umrechnet.
.................
the support acu calculation is made with ras upgrade to "reduce" the costs and there you can see that sacu is balanced very good in fact. it costs only 4k mass. just imagine thats in the battlefield 4 destroyed bricks you have to collect and it was already worth it.