help with my eco

[pheon93]

well i've played two games so far and after reveiwing them my eco was a glaring problem i couldn't keep up with unit production at all so i made a basic build order to follow to try and fix the problem this is what i came up with.

game start
acu:1 Lfac 2pgens then moves off to expand to nearby mass
factory:2eng then loop 4tank 2atry 1scout
eng:1st eng builds 2mass at base then 2pgen 1Lfac or 1Afac 1radar after that for every two mass i build it builds 2pgen 1fac the facs then make 2eng then assist 1st fac. 2nd eng builds the other 2 mass at base then go for expansion

well thats it the initial build order to get me on my feet
opinions?

i have a replay of this in sandbox but don't know how to upload it so i can't post it

thanks for reading

[Rasmuffin]

I'll try to make this short and helpful. You may have noticed the other eco forum topic has gotten very long, complicated and not useful yet, but that is another discussion.

1st thing: your commander is doing the right thing with 1Lfac, 2Power, nearby mexes, then you should walk towards the hydrocarbon if there is one on the map. If there is no hydro the com should build 2-4 more power gens (depends on available mass reclaim, more power if more mass to reclaim around)

2nd thing: 1st engineer should place the hydro if there is one on the map, if no hydro go for some early mass reclaim (gunna need the early boost because the pgens take more mass than the hydro).

3rd thing: at least 3 engineers at all time. In the case of a map where t1 land and air spam is involved you should follow the standard expansion tactic:
- Commander towards the enemy base set up a strong point (maybe a pd, a factory, usually around some forward mexes) ,
- Engineer towards the flank and get mexes for a area of control ( never keeping units there, just always some nearby, harassing from here)
-2 Engineers at base building power, more factories, a radar. ( 2 engineers at base can build things quickly enough)

4th thing: It is hard to explain precisely, but the most common mistake I see new players making is that it takes more mass to build factories than to produce out of them. 2 engineers building a factory costs 8mass/second. Producing t1 tanks costs 52 mass/ (13s buildtime + 2s unloadtime) = 3.5 mass/second.

This is evident that whenever you start thinking "I need more units" sending 4 engineers to build more factories is the same impact as having 4 factories building t1 tanks. The early game rocks are most effective to not only upgrade mexes but to help cover the setup cost of t1 land factories.

Final notes:
1: don't run negative power
2: jiggle your units, artillery hurts unit counts
3: if there is mass eat it sooner rather than later. refer to not #1
4: build power is a resource that needs to equal mass income. ( 40m/s income, need to have engineers/ factories to spend at least 40m/s)
5: try mimicry, get someone who has played for a while, turn off FoW, and play the first 5 minutes of a game. After two or three restarts your builds should look very similar. (this is does not turn you into them, it just trains you to know what the sequence of events should look like.)
6: don't take people's advice too seriously, if you've made it this far into this post and are still nodding your head in agreement to what I've said then you need some more hands-on experience.

[NubFriedRice1988]

useful tips:
-it takes two tech 1 mass extractors to run a factory building tanks on repeat
-one tech 2 mass extractor = 6 tech 1 mass extractors
-if you are negative power/mass, pause things accordingly
ex: negative power: pause air factory and start building more power/reclaim more trees (1 tree is worth 1 mass/5power)
-constantly have idle engineers reclaiming rocks/trees/buildings around the map
-if your hydrocarbon is pretty far from your base at the start, don't bother with it until later, build 8 t1 pgens in your base to power an air factory
-if your hydrocarbon is close, have your acu build your land fac and only 1 pgen, and have him assist your first engineer building the hydrocarbon, after grabbing some mex's of course...
-hydrocarbon=5 t1 pgens

[Gowerly]

The 1 t2 = 6 t1 mass extractors is incorrect.

1 T2 mass extractor produces 3 times the mass of one T1 Mass Extractor.

[Raging_Squirrel]

-if your hydrocarbon is close, have your acu build your land fac and only 1 pgen, and have him assist your first engineer building the hydrocarbon, after grabbing some mex's of course...
-hydrocarbon=5 t1 pgens

if hydro is reachable by acu at the start without moving it or distance is very tiny, I usually build like this:
acu: fac, 4 mexes
fac: 2-3 engies, scout+couple of tanks (depends on the map, could be skipped sometimes), loop engies
1st engie: hydro, then loads of pgens
2nd engie: assist hydro, then mexes (or assist 1st, if I go air 2nd)
next 3-5 engies go for recalim

after the hydro is finished, acu assists for one pgen and builds another one or two facs

[kimsession]

Sorry to piggyback onto your thread but quick question - is there a way to tell how much different map objects are worth for reclaiming? I've seen the dead unit wreck values in the unit stat guide but what about rocks, trees and premade wrecks?

[Rasmuffin]

Sorry to piggyback onto your thread but quick question - is there a way to tell how much different map objects are worth for reclaiming? I've seen the dead unit wreck values in the unit stat guide but what about rocks, trees and premade wrecks?

Nope, all experience. I have found that generally for a t1 engineer on patrol:
trees are 1mass/second & 10 energy/second
small rocks are 4mass/second
large rocks are around 75 mass each

giant rocks are 50m/s and 175 mass (the ditch, Daroza's sanctuary)
Reclaiming units are 50m/s and 70% of the mass to build the unit (this is reduced based on damage done to the wreck)

(50m/s will go down for relocation and aiming time. if you guesstimate 25m/s it should be a better guideline.)

I hope this helps kimsession. and show why reclaim is the ability every FA player can always improve.

[kimsession]

Sorry to piggyback onto your thread but quick question - is there a way to tell how much different map objects are worth for reclaiming? I've seen the dead unit wreck values in the unit stat guide but what about rocks, trees and premade wrecks?

Nope, all experience. I have found that generally for a t1 engineer on patrol:
trees are 1mass/second & 10 energy/second
small rocks are 4mass/second
large rocks are around 75 mass each

giant rocks are 50m/s and 175 mass (the ditch, Daroza's sanctuary)
Reclaiming units are 50m/s and 70% of the mass to build the unit (this is reduced based on damage done to the wreck)

(50m/s will go down for relocation and aiming time. if you guesstimate 25m/s it should be a better guideline.)

I hope this helps kimsession. and show why reclaim is the ability every FA player can always improve.

Thanks, is helpful!

[pheon93]

well i just tested the build order in a ranked match vs crazy_cossak i lost but my eco was doing a hole lot better then last match
he took air and i lost my map control fast then got overwelmed but looking at the bright side i lasted 12 mins i died within 7mins last time

thank for the help guys now to keep improving my eco

edit: i'd like to upload replays to show you guys when i ask for help but i don't know how
sorry for the 20 questions