This forum is archived and read only.
Please move to the new forum!

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 10:55

Right now the formula is

(log1p(tech level))^3.7.

Meaning that a single T1 reinforces in 15 seconds, a tech 2 in 84 seconds, and a tech 3 in 200 seconds.

For aeon, if I take only the DPS, a T3 is about 13 T1. A T2 about 5.

The price is the mass cost / tech level.

So basically, they are all balanced DPS and time-wise.
It was a crude way of doing things to make the function working, but it's rather random.
And it's not enough obviously.

I want T1 to be a valid option. ie. I want people wanting to reinforce 200 T1 at once.
But I also don't want reinforcements being mandatory as it is now. But they should play a big role.

It's a tedious balance that will need a lot of tweaking, so let's begin.

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 11:06

First, let's tweak the time.

Let's tweak the power.
Here are the results between 3.7 (current) and 9.9:

Code: Select all: ----- ----- power 3.7 tech 1 : 15 seconds tech 2 : 84 seconds tech 3 : 200 seconds you can have 12.9960383417 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 5.496297965 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 3.8 tech 1 : 14 seconds tech 2 : 85 seconds tech 3 : 207 seconds you can have 13.9288090127 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 5.75535567563 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 3.9 tech 1 : 14 seconds tech 2 : 86 seconds tech 3 : 214 seconds you can have 14.9285278646 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 6.02662358626 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.0 tech 1 : 13 seconds tech 2 : 87 seconds tech 3 : 221 seconds you can have 16.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 6.31067720181 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.1 tech 1 : 13 seconds tech 2 : 88 seconds tech 3 : 228 seconds you can have 17.1483754006 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 6.60811915253 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.2 tech 1 : 12 seconds tech 2 : 89 seconds tech 3 : 236 seconds you can have 18.37917368 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 6.91958047252 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.3 tech 1 : 12 seconds tech 2 : 89 seconds tech 3 : 244 seconds you can have 19.6983106135 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 7.24572193849 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.4 tech 1 : 11 seconds tech 2 : 90 seconds tech 3 : 252 seconds you can have 21.1121265724 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 7.58723547164 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.5 tech 1 : 11 seconds tech 2 : 91 seconds tech 3 : 260 seconds you can have 22.627416998 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 7.94484560555 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.6 tech 1 : 11 seconds tech 2 : 92 seconds tech 3 : 269 seconds you can have 24.2514650642 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 8.31931102336 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.7 tech 1 : 10 seconds tech 2 : 93 seconds tech 3 : 278 seconds you can have 25.9920766834 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 8.71142616731 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.8 tech 1 : 10 seconds tech 2 : 94 seconds tech 3 : 287 seconds you can have 27.8576180255 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 9.12202292419 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 4.9 tech 1 : 9 seconds tech 2 : 95 seconds tech 3 : 297 seconds you can have 29.8570557292 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 9.55197239019 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.0 tech 1 : 9 seconds tech 2 : 96 seconds tech 3 : 307 seconds you can have 32.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 10.002186719 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.1 tech 1 : 9 seconds tech 2 : 96 seconds tech 3 : 317 seconds you can have 34.2967508012 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 10.4736210571 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.2 tech 1 : 8 seconds tech 2 : 97 seconds tech 3 : 327 seconds you can have 36.7583473599 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 10.9672755697 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.3 tech 1 : 8 seconds tech 2 : 98 seconds tech 3 : 338 seconds you can have 39.396621227 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 11.4841975632 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.4 tech 1 : 8 seconds tech 2 : 99 seconds tech 3 : 350 seconds you can have 42.2242531447 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 12.0254837067 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.5 tech 1 : 7 seconds tech 2 : 100 seconds tech 3 : 361 seconds you can have 45.2548339959 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 12.5922823588 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.6 tech 1 : 7 seconds tech 2 : 101 seconds tech 3 : 373 seconds you can have 48.5029301283 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 13.1857960039 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.7 tech 1 : 7 seconds tech 2 : 102 seconds tech 3 : 386 seconds you can have 51.9841533668 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 13.807283803 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.8 tech 1 : 7 seconds tech 2 : 103 seconds tech 3 : 398 seconds you can have 55.715236051 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 14.4580642656 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 5.9 tech 1 : 6 seconds tech 2 : 104 seconds tech 3 : 412 seconds you can have 59.7141114584 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 15.1395180464 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.0 tech 1 : 6 seconds tech 2 : 105 seconds tech 3 : 425 seconds you can have 64.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 15.8530908749 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.1 tech 1 : 6 seconds tech 2 : 106 seconds tech 3 : 440 seconds you can have 68.5935016023 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 16.6002966222 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.2 tech 1 : 6 seconds tech 2 : 107 seconds tech 3 : 454 seconds you can have 73.5166947198 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 17.382720513 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.3 tech 1 : 5 seconds tech 2 : 108 seconds tech 3 : 469 seconds you can have 78.7932424541 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 18.2020224885 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.4 tech 1 : 5 seconds tech 2 : 109 seconds tech 3 : 485 seconds you can have 84.4485062895 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 19.0599407281 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.5 tech 1 : 5 seconds tech 2 : 110 seconds tech 3 : 501 seconds you can have 90.5096679919 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 19.9582953372 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.6 tech 1 : 5 seconds tech 2 : 111 seconds tech 3 : 518 seconds you can have 97.0058602567 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 20.8989922083 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.7 tech 1 : 5 seconds tech 2 : 112 seconds tech 3 : 535 seconds you can have 103.968306734 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 21.8840270646 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.8 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 113 seconds tech 3 : 553 seconds you can have 111.430472102 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 22.9154896939 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 6.9 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 114 seconds tech 3 : 571 seconds you can have 119.428222917 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 23.9955683825 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.0 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 115 seconds tech 3 : 590 seconds you can have 128.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 25.1265545572 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.1 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 116 seconds tech 3 : 609 seconds you can have 137.187003205 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 26.310847647 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.2 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 118 seconds tech 3 : 630 seconds you can have 147.03338944 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 27.5509601736 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.3 tech 1 : 4 seconds tech 2 : 119 seconds tech 3 : 651 seconds you can have 157.586484908 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 28.8495230815 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.4 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 120 seconds tech 3 : 672 seconds you can have 168.897012579 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 30.2092913201 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.5 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 121 seconds tech 3 : 695 seconds you can have 181.019335984 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 31.6331496878 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.6 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 122 seconds tech 3 : 718 seconds you can have 194.011720513 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 33.124118953 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.7 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 123 seconds tech 3 : 742 seconds you can have 207.936613467 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 34.6853622621 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.8 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 124 seconds tech 3 : 766 seconds you can have 222.860944204 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 36.3201918505 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 7.9 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 126 seconds tech 3 : 792 seconds you can have 238.856445833 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 38.0320760698 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.0 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 127 seconds tech 3 : 818 seconds you can have 256.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 39.8246467455 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.1 tech 1 : 3 seconds tech 2 : 128 seconds tech 3 : 845 seconds you can have 274.374006409 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 41.7017068827 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.2 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 129 seconds tech 3 : 873 seconds you can have 294.066778879 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 43.667238734 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.3 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 130 seconds tech 3 : 902 seconds you can have 315.172969816 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 45.7254122479 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.4 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 132 seconds tech 3 : 932 seconds you can have 337.794025158 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 47.8805939157 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.5 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 133 seconds tech 3 : 963 seconds you can have 362.038671968 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 50.1373560349 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.6 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 134 seconds tech 3 : 995 seconds you can have 388.023441027 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 52.5004864099 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.7 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 135 seconds tech 3 : 1028 seconds you can have 415.873226934 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 54.9749985093 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.8 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 137 seconds tech 3 : 1062 seconds you can have 445.721888408 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 57.5661421021 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 8.9 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 138 seconds tech 3 : 1098 seconds you can have 477.712891667 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 60.2794143951 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.0 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 139 seconds tech 3 : 1134 seconds you can have 512.0 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 63.1205716961 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.1 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 141 seconds tech 3 : 1172 seconds you can have 548.748012819 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 66.0956416252 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.2 tech 1 : 2 seconds tech 2 : 142 seconds tech 3 : 1211 seconds you can have 588.133557758 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 69.2109359035 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.3 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 143 seconds tech 3 : 1251 seconds you can have 630.345939633 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 72.473063743 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.4 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 145 seconds tech 3 : 1292 seconds you can have 675.588050316 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 75.8889458686 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.5 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 146 seconds tech 3 : 1335 seconds you can have 724.077343935 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 79.4658292006 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.6 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 147 seconds tech 3 : 1380 seconds you can have 776.046882053 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 83.2113022294 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.7 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 149 seconds tech 3 : 1426 seconds you can have 831.746453869 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 87.1333111145 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.8 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 150 seconds tech 3 : 1473 seconds you can have 891.443776815 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 91.240176543 T1 for the same time as one T2 ----- power 9.9 tech 1 : 1 seconds tech 2 : 152 seconds tech 3 : 1522 seconds you can have 955.425783334 T1 for the same time as one T3 you can have 95.5406113817 T1 for the same time as one T2

I think 5.5 is not a bad value :

power 5.5
tech 1 : 7 seconds
tech 2 : 100 seconds
tech 3 : 361 seconds
you can have 45.2548339959 T1 for the same time as one T3
you can have 12.5922823588 T1 for the same time as one T2

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 12:01

For the cost.

We will only talk about relative cost.

The reason is that the eco of GW need to be balanced too, so absolute value has no meaning yet (300 credits can be dirt cheap or really expensive depending of how the game will be balanced).

Right now, for a aurora/blaze/harb, it is :

Code: Select all: tech 1 costs 52 credits tech 2 costs 180 credits tech 3 costs 280 credits A tech 2 cost 3.46153846154 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 5.38461538462 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 1.55555555556 x a T2

That's plain wrong. A T3 is dirt cheap compared to a T1.

If we take only the raw mass cost :

Code: Select all: tech 1 costs 52 credits tech 2 costs 360 credits tech 3 costs 840 credits A tech 2 cost 6.92307692308 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 16.1538461538 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 2.33333333333 x a T2

If we take mass cost *tech level:

Code: Select all: tech 1 costs 52 credits tech 1 costs 52 credits tech 2 costs 720 credits tech 3 costs 2520 credits A tech 2 cost 13.8461538462 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 48.4615384615 x a T1 A tech 3 cost 3.5 x a T2

Again, it's not the credits cost that is important right now but the ratio between them (remember to take reinforcement time in consideration too).
You also have to take in consideration that in the future, you won't lose reinforcements that are not used.

What do you think?

by **FunkOff** » 02 Sep 2013, 12:23

I've never actually received reinforcements because all the people I play vs, even the noobs, send bombers to kill my beacon. I don't care if stuff costs more, just get it to me faster.

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 12:29

That's not really the feedback I was asking for :-/

http://www.youtube.com/user/dimatularus · by **ZLO_RD** » 02 Sep 2013, 12:42

the whole system is ok, but finding balance between cost and time and count of units and tech level.... it is all very hard to balance, and only can be find out by playing

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 12:53

For the moment it's not that great.

There is almost no good reason to do any T1. They should at least cost less.

Mass raw cost seems already a good improvement?

Website · by **ColonelSheppard** » 02 Sep 2013, 13:31

Timedelay:

Introduction:
The current times but also the times you suggest really kill the lower tech a bit.
So let's say in an average game T2 is built at minute 10, and T3 maybe around minute 25. So if you spawn the first T3 Unit at min 6, one side is (nearly) completely pointless to atack with T1. Same thing for a rangebot at minute 1:40.
I think reinforcements should be ahead of the techlevels but no instant autowin with just one titan. Also early higher tech reinforcements favor air much.

Massfactor
Also i dont think that masscosts aren't always a very good indicator, seriously, a shield, a pillar and a mongoose might be close in masscosts but not at all in effectiveness. Mass costs sould only be used between compareable units, sucha as: Medusa/Lobo/Fobo/Favor or Titan/loyalist/chickenbot or Mongoose/Hoplite.

New Massfactor
massfactor = (mass cost of the unit) / ((mass cost of all units on that tech of that kind together) / (amount of units))
so for T1 arties mdedusa has for example 0.8 and fobo 1.15 (i didnt calculate that now just as example)

Tech factor:
As for the tech levels i suggest to actually ad only a time penalty for the FIRST higher tech unit. So for example the first T2 unit delays the whole stuff by 2-3min). Futhermore i suggest that getting the delay penalty for an higher tech grants a bonus on the spantimes of lower tech.

For low T1: - Tech delay = 0
all values * massfactor
SCOUT: 3s (extra vison, easy addition to all futher reinforcements)
Seleen: 5s (easy placement all over the map before labs get delivered)
LAB: 13s (extra raiding group after factory is finished, 2 labs can take out a tank so it's viable compare to two tanks at 40s)

For high T1 - Tech delay = 60s - reduces low t1 times by 30%
all values * massfactor
Tank: 21s (makes up for 3 tanks per minute)
Arty: 24s (similar to tank, but with the idea that an early arty can be devestating on a lot of the cliff based maps in GW)

For T2 - tech delay 3min - reduces high t1 times by 40%
all values * massfactor
T2 tank(obsidian/pillar/rhino/chicken): 30s (if someone leaves out t1 stage tanks and for example only went for labs, he could have gone for 6 labs and air first ultra fast gettho and "rush T2" how it's often done in normal games too, then he gets his first T2 tank around min 4, which is pretty nice
T2 rangbot: 40s (it needs to be more than a t2 tank, if it should be 40 45 now simply has to be tested)
T2 shield: ehee thats tricky since it consumes energy and the aeon shield is quite nice through that and the UEF shield needs often too much energy for that time, i dont know somebody else has to think abou that, maybe similar to a tank since you ahve to pay for the energy)
T2 MML: 25s (you cant really kite with that and the range normally isnt really an instant pwnage for bases, also it can be sniped by air, i think it should be less than a tank)
Field Engy: 40s (it gives acces to T2 PD and TML which is awesome, but with fast spawning MML it shouldnt be so overpowered, i mean you could get nearly 2 MMLs in the same time)

For T3: - Time penalty 6min - reduces T2 times by 40%
all values * massfactor
Titan/loyalist: 35s (you waited 6 min, you have 15s spawning T2 Tank)
Harbinger/Brick/Othoum/Perciaval: 2:00 (with the massfactor that would be around 40% earlier for hrb)
Sniper: 2:30 (they counter T3 bots so yes defenitly more)
Arty/Spearhead: 2:00 (killable with air, countered by snipers)
T3 shield: (1:30 an addition to T3 armies so no high spawntime)
T3 Shield disruptor: dunno how and when to use that

T3 timereduce - time penalty 5 minuest
reduces all times by 40%

For the cost i suggest a smiliar system with the tech levels.

If your argument is that this takes too much time in terms of mathematics. I can do the mathematical concept, so you just have to copy and paste.

hf destroying my argumentation and so on^^

by **betelgeuze** » 02 Sep 2013, 14:52

For cost: What about taking the DPS of the fight group?
For Aeon
T2 would be 2 (blaze) or 4.5 (obsi) the amount of a T1.
T3 would be 15 times a T1.

You could combine it with a function of the tech-level to compensate that higher tech units are more effective/healthy...

by **Ze_PilOt** » 02 Sep 2013, 14:53

Doing compensation is too complicated.

Not server/math-wise but for the user.

This forum is archived and read only.
Please move to the new forum!

Forged Alliance Forever

Reinforcement balance.

Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Re: Reinforcement balance.

Who is online

This forum is archived and read only.Please move to the new forum!

Who is online

This forum is archived and read only.
Please move to the new forum!