navy balance and hover

[yeager]

Ok, this gets argued about a lot so I'm Gonna try to lay this out, feel free to correct me, argue with me, and suggest things
Let's start with looking at it the simplest way possible, see who has the best of what:
T1: cybran,uef,seraphim,aeon (this one is kinda obviouse and is like this due to hover,I'll explain later)
t2: cybran,aeon,uef,seraphim (I know, I know, WHY IS SERA LAST? I'll tell you why, they have no special unit, uef has a Better cruiser, and the destroyer is the worst for large fights were you can't micro, also they lack a delicated sub hunter at t2)(also I put cybran at first because of t2 sub, I'll explain later)
T3 uef, cybran, aeon, and seraphim (once again, why are seraphim last? Well because the cybran t2 sub is cost effect against the seraphim t3 sub, and so is the cooper, HARMS, and t3 torp bomber, combine this with the least cost effective battle ship and you have the worst t3 navy)
Amphib:
T1: aeon,seraphim (aeon has best hover, worst frigate, sea has 2nd best hover, and 2nd worst frigate, see how this works?)
T2: aeon,seraphim,uef, cybran (aeon is better than sera cause of shield)
T3: cybran,sera,uef,aeon
Naval air:
T1:mut
T2: pretty even although the sea hover bomber is awful so: uef,cybran,aeon,sera
T3: aeon, everyone else
What this means:
1. Cybran has the best navy, case closed, not only that but they have the best naval defendeses
2.seraphim has the worst navy, case closed
3. Aeon and sera hae great hover, and since try consistently fall short in regular navy this makes sense
4. Uef navy really isn't that bad, stop whining about it
What I suggest:
buff the seraphim sub so it is cost affective vs it's t2 counterparts
Nerf uef battleship, it isn't the end of the world
Nerf cybran navy, but be very careful about it
Aeon will be fine if everything else happens

[alegnagyobbkiraj]

I doubt cybran navy needs to be nerfed, also that cybran t2 was stronger than aeon t2. Sera t3 sub is underpowered that is clear, sera destro micro dependent but they have op fobo. The most important lategame feature is uef being unbeatable (while in midgame they are quite potent as well).
This is in part due to summit's obvious superiority in range and punching power above the other battleships but this advantage is also paired up with the bulwark protection which is totally gamebreaking imo. Lategame shieldboat usage has to be done something with because the on-off blinking shield domes make it all but impossible to get to the fleet, and sniping the boats is also very difficult.
Playing against such a fleet with other faction is near hopeless (with cybran -> other bs+stealth: negated by cheap airscouts, with aeon -> absolver: totally useless, with sera -> cruiser: also ineffective, sea based nuke should solve the problem if nothing else does, but it is so weak it is almost fully negated by the shields). In straight words, it has no other direct counter than to build your own bulwarks.
The tricky part is that the shieldboat is not op in itself imo, but if grouped up it gets exponentially more potent, so I have little idea how the problem can be solved (maybe shield overlap penalty or e cost increase but that latter influences the early e burden so making shieldboat earlier could become a real luxury).
Hover is good how it is imo, frigs are more mass-effective, hover's strength lies in that it can be grouped more tightly, but with proper frig usage they should not be a problem at all.

[alegnagyobbkiraj]

No idea why people complain so much about hover, it is less effective and slower than frigs, actually slower than cruiser. And saying it can swarm battleships is talking not just about their speed but about the talents of the player who has battleships where it can be swarmed by hover.

[Vee]

People complain about hover because you can delay losing navy for half an hour by just spamming 100% of your eco in hover, as well as side navies getting won or lost purely by whether enemy mid is spamming hover to your side or not.

[alegnagyobbkiraj]

In this case it is not a balance question lol.
Edit: maybe make hovers not to be able to go above water

[Vee]

It is.

[yeager]

Cybran navy needs 0 nerf IMO. UEF needs to start with a summit nerf and then move to bulwark too if it is still too good. Seraphim is second to UEF at T3 and IMO is just as good as other factions T2. The mass effect encyclopedia of the units is something you constantly touch on when it is something that is there for a reason... X Mass in T2 sub will always beat X mass of t3 sub if you just look at combined dps/health... you cannot just discount micro. ofc if you micro your t3 subs into range of t2 subs you deserve to have them all die horribly .

But you can't micro against a unit can't see, especially considering it is faster, scouts get raped by asf or cybran carrier and cruiser gets killed by the subs before it process good Intel sooo

[yeager]

The reason I feel cybran can be OP is because it has the best t1 navy and best t2 navy, it is superior in 2 tech levels right in a row, so it has plenty of opportunities to beat the enemy.Not trying to hate cybran s, I love them , but their early to mid game is so damn good and the late game isn't exactly weak
As for seraphim: fobo is awesome, don't get me wrong, but 1 frigate can easily kill 20 fobos with some micro
I get the destroyer is awesome with micro, but it's hard to micro more than 10 to any effectiveness
As for people who don't think the t3 sub needs a buff: enough coopers and shields boats render them entirely useless, I've already said why it's not an issue for cybran, and sera being able to beat aeon sub hunters is, well like a brick steam rolling hover, if your using hover against s brick or aeon subs against the seraphim you are doing something wrong, that's why they have the t3 torp bomber for that
I agree, uef late game is op

[yeager]

Ugh, let me put this in to game terms:
T1: cybran and seraphim player both build maybe 3 naval factories, 2 spam frigates, 1 spams subs, cybran begins to push back seraphim because their t1 is better (if you want you can substitute a factory for some hover arty spam but that will end even worse
T2: alright, sera has a little disadvantage but now it has its destroyers, so it starts producing those, cybran also starts producing destroyers, so now let's say there is 6 cybran frigates left and 4 seraphim plus 2 destroyers on each side, with some excellent micro the seraphim player pulls out a win. Cybran player begins spamming t2 subs. The destroyers aren't cost effective so the seraphim player builds torp defense, which is immediately blown up by long range destroyers, alright fine, lets say somhow the seraphim player gets to t3 which is supposed to be the turning point, he somehow with out map control matches the cybran players spam only to start losing causing he can't see the subs until they are in range, he builds a cruiser but it gets killed by the destroyers over and over again. Basically unless the seraphim player has t3 air or some shiz like that he is just gonna keep getting beat down (and even then he lacks t3 gunships and his torp bomber sucks) so the seraphim player gets pushed back more, a few destroyers or bricks come on land and kill his acu
the end
This happens every time regardless of the scale, not to mention cybran battle ship is way more cost effective than seraphim. And on really open maps the cybrans kick out a mermaid or few and kill everything form long range (destroyers are safe and t3 subs are fine but everything else is doomed)
See? This is why the sub hunter needs a buff.
Also dont try to argue hover somehow try's to make up for this, it doesn't :p
Sorry if I'm coming across rude

[Ionic]

With sera you should build T3 land hover shields and hover units, along with T3 subs/battleships.