seraphim torpedo bomber

[yeager]

now before I start I'm gonna say I'm not trying to bring up something that has been dealt with in the past, this leans more to the side of being a question than a suggestion.
Why has no one fixed this issue? seraphim torp bombers are crap, and without a dedicated t2 sub, or frankly anything that can counter subs mass for mass it seems like there torp bomber should be a good one. Also, things like seraphim battleship nukes were nerfed right away when they acted differently, but seraphim torp bomber was never changed. Is there an answer to this? Or has no one every gotten around to implementing the fixes I've seen in mods?

[The Mak]

seraphim torp bombers are crap, and without a dedicated t2 sub, or frankly anything that can counter subs mass for mass it seems like there torp bomber should be a good one.

Well isn't the Seraphim Destroyer a somewhat equivalent to a T2 submarine as it can submerge.

If you look at the mass / DPS of torpedoes; the Destroyer has the highest cost of the three units (Cybran 30% better, Aeon 13% better).

If you look at the Seraphim Destroyers torpedo DPS; it is significantly stronger than Aeon and Cybran T2 subs.

Also the Destroyer's anti-torpedo is on par with the Aeon T2 Sub, tied for the best.

The Destroyer's hit points is also four times greater than the T2 subs.

The T2 subs also have a leg up on speed to the Destroyer, which I think is the real advantage here. All the torpedo ranges are equal so they can pop in, fire the volley and speed away.

I wonder if you mix Seraphim T1 subs with the Destroyers for its anti-torpedo. If we look at the mass / anti-torpedo DPS, it does beat out all the T2 subs. This may help the Destroyer (along with its hit point advantage) survive longer in straight up slug fights between T2 subs.

There is also the surface weapons of the Destroyer, they have a splash of 1 radius. Have not tried to see how successful they are if you use attack ground over a sub. Either way, the Seraphim Destroyer is quite a nice package.

I am not saying they do not need a torpedo bomber, just that they may have a strategy against T2 sub spam.

Also, I think IceDreamer's mod tried to address the torpedo bomber issue or at least laid down the mechanics to have them work correctly.

[yeager]

Well, cybran subs easily beat there equivalent in sera destroyers, an Aeon subs are, well, aeon subs. I doubt mixing t1 sub would be of any benefit, the torp defense is awful. Attack ground, although interesting doesn't seem realistic at all, I think ice dreamers mod gave all the torp bombers the same release mechanism, not sure if the Torps for sera are still blocked by torp defense. Something interesting, which would in theory fix the problem would be to buff the range on uef and seraphim torp defense so they don't get killed by destroyers, but I don't know how that would play out and personally think it would be a lousy fix.
edit: the seraphim destroyer seems to be a make-shift sub, not a counter to one. this is why id like to give the sera sub some of its damage or hp back, so that it is equivalent or better than t2 subs mass for mass, giving seraphim a counter other than avoiding the issue completely and going with amphib assault, which is really annoying and not very fun for either side.

[yeager]

This conversation is also beging another question: what can we do to make aeon t2 sub actually worth using compared to destroyer, while not making it as strong as the destroyer

[gnatinator]

Well, cybran subs easily beat there equivalent in sera destroyers, an Aeon subs are, well, aeon subs.

This has been disproven many times. Use the unit test mode to see for yourself.

You seem to post an awful lot on this forum, and yet so much of what you say is backed up by nothing. No substance.

It's extremely lazy to do this and you do a disservice to the quality of our entire community, especially new players looking in at the "balance" forum.

[yeager]

I tested it, if you don't believe me go look a my replays, its barracuda vs sera

[quark036]

Upload a replay so we can see what you are basing your argument on

[yeager]

tada ill gladdly test evry varient of this fight, trust me, i want to be wrong

[yeager]

Also if you guys have any better, clearer ways of testing this plz let me know, i want it to be clean and correct

[The Mak]

Did some testing as well.

Replay ID: 3667750, about 27 minutes long

3667750-The_Mak.fafreplay

(25.16 KiB) Downloaded 101 times

Sandboxing between 2x Cybran Tech 2 Subs and 1x Seraphim Destroyer, as it is a 2 to 1 in favor of Cybran Tech 2 Subs in mass cost.

Jump to 2:30 for first test.
I had all the units on hold fire, I was trying to get an idea of their intel capabilities (forgot power for Cybran at first). Got them both close, then released the hold fire.
Results: Both subs killed, destroyer barely damaged. At the range that it was the subs did not see the destroyer, but did fire single shot volleys at it and not the full 6 shot volleys they were supposed to.

Second test at 7:00
Have power now for Cybran and looking at what happens at the weapon range. The destroyer has a water vision of 45, equal to both torpedo ranges, so that sonar stealth is kind of not helping. You can get to a point where the sub can fire on the destroyer and the destroyer does not fire back. Need to micro the subs, as an attack order moves the sub too close.
Results: Destroyer killed; 1 sub killed, 1 sub damaged, after I moved the destroyer forward.

Third test at 9:00
For this I was seeing if the main guns had enough splash to damage the subs with ground fire. Did not work out unfortunately. It messed with the torpedoes of the destroyer.
Results: Destroyer killed; both subs survived, minimal damage

Fourth test at 10:20
Kind of messed up, used the same subs from before (one had 200 hp missing). This time moved and specified target with destroyer. Subs stationary.
Results: Destroyer lives with 525hp.

Fifth test at 11:15
This time had the subs search for destroyer.
Results: all units killed each other.

Sixth test at 13:30
Subs hunting stationary destroyer, but I was trying to find that sweet spot where the subs would fire without them being fired upon.
Results: Destroyer dead; 1 sub dead and the other was again firing without being fired upon.

Seventh test at 16:30
This time added sonar station to Cybran. Subs given an attack order and then I tried to micro the subs so that they fire a volley and run away, since they have a speed advantage. Again I was able to have the sub fire without being fired upon.
Results: Destroyer dead, subs about 1/2 or 1/3 heatlh.

Eighth test at 18:50
This time moved and queued up attack orders with destroyer onto each sub.
Results: Destroyer lives with 300hp, both subs dead

Ninth test at 20:30
Subs given attack move order, I move the destroyer to the subs and then try to keep a broadside to them as I loop around them.
Results: Destroyer lives with 150hp, both subs dead

Tenth test at 22:30
5 subs vs 2 destroyers. Kept the subs in a line and had the destroyers loop around them
Results: Both destroyers dead, 1 sub dead, 1 sub at 310 HP, 1 sub at 1270 HP, 2 subs at full health

Eleventh test 23:50
4 subs vs 2 destroyers. Kept subs in line, had given target orders onto subs so that the focus fire on each one together.
Results: Both destroyers dead, 3 subs dead, 1 sub at 1270 hp

Twelfth test at 25:50
Back to 2 vs 1. Destroyer given a loop path around subs, but this time I control the subs to keep up.
Results: Destroyer lives with 375hp, both subs dead


We can see that if Cybran can micro effectively they can win out. If the destroyer just actually gets into the fight it can win out, but heavy in the red. So with Cybran, keep on the move unless you have numbers. Seraphim, keep pushing forward and keep them at a close range so that they do not run to far.