RAS, Teamgames And Salt

[PhilipJFry]

There appears to be somewhat of a misconception as to why RAS is currently the most common thing you will see in most teamgame maps with a dedicated air spot so i'll just try to explain why that is the case.

Spoiler: show

I will completely ignore 1v1 here for obvious reasons

Reasons why RAS is NOT being used

It allows you to get t3 air faster.
It is so much more efficient than other eco options.
AEON and SERA have 2 of it so it must be good.
Swag

Reason why RAS is being used

Synergy

Getting enough power to start your ASF production is possible with RAS as well as t3 pgens. The advantage of RAS in teamgames is the fact that you can and should get it in the t2 phase. This means that you have enough power to spam ASF before being able to do so. Upgrading your air factory to t3 after RAS takes around one minute depending on your mass income and build power.
So you have one minute where you burn somewhat more than 1.5k e/s while generating 4k+ (depending on your faction).
Everyone who just now took out their calculator and did the math will notice that the overflow between RAS and endless ASF spam amounts to around 150k energy which conveniently is the same amount of energy you need to get RAS.

Conclusion: In teamgames (where at least one of your teammates can RAS thanks to the overflow before you spam ASF) RAS is more effective than t3 pgens.

[nine2]

Ok. How does that fit into the RAS-nerf discussion? Like... i figure your saying it for reason but what is the reason?

[Mel_Gibson]

Zcion is going to be 2k rated if you start building those pgens.

[PhilipJFry]

Sorry probably should have added some more stuff you're right.

The reason why i made this post is because i wanted to point out that RAS is not overpowered because of its effectivity but rather because of a tech issue. Therefor i just wanted to make clear that increasing the cost of RAS would be the better way to fix this issue.

By nerfing the output of RAS we'd just make it worse in almost every aspect than other eco options and go from a RAS meta to a t3 pgen meta.
By increasing the cost we could reduce the synergy advantage and make RAS just a little slower than t3 pgens.

Therefor my suggestion is to increase the cost since it will add more options to the game than nerfing the output.

[speed2]

I'd like to say that if I do everything right, I don't waste that energy you mentioned and calculated.

When on air spot, I usually pick Aeon for obvious reason. Once first RAS is done, I start a second one and also upgrading Air factory to T3, this way the factory might be done even faster than the second ras. I start my ASF spam and Im using all the energy, by the time that second ras is done I have enough engies to add them to ASF spam to use that power as well.

Also in the time Im upgrading second RAS and Air factory is going T3 might ctrl-k T2 pgens and turn them into T3 mexes if I have enough energy. But that very much depends on current situation, if I have to build some T2, T1 air as well, if allies wants to go RAS, etc...

[PhilipJFry]

Congratulations you have just gotten ASF a few seconds sooner while your opponent has one additional RAS in his team. You will be outspammed within one minute and your mates cannot profit from your RAS.

Of course you should reclaim your t2 pgens for aras but getting a t3 air hq at the same time will hurt you more than it does benefit you.
edit: i'm assuming that at least one teammate does RAS after the air player to keep this simple. Of course this does not apply to every teammap with a dedicated air spot but that is beside the point.

[Petricpwnz]

I do agree that the price should be increased instead of output nerf, cba to find that HZH post but I really liked what he wrote there.
However!
Ras isn't used only for it's synergy, otherwise people wouldn't be making it in 1v1. Or rather I should say, the person in the team who gets ras 1st uses it for it's efficiency and all subsequent people just abuse this overflow window to skip t2-t3 pgens which is efficiency+synergy. In fact I would say the synergy factor only makes ras even more cancer. I don't see how exactly consecutive team rasing is making gameplay better in any way. The "teamplay" aspect of it is an established meta and not a real teamplay, it doesnt require anything from you but a few brain cells and a basic ability to read, which basically means your teammates are either people for whom ras is a standard part of gameplay or newbies/high people(csoller) who just refuse to see and react to any teamplay necessity and annoy everyone. There are even mods that auto-notify your teammates that your ras is done, it is all one big joke, typical scenarios:

-Random factions, you roll single ras fac vs double ras, unlucky so taste your disadvantage for pretty much no reason.
-Your team are all double ras factions, enemy's single ras. Big surprise you can now make 20-30% more air than your opponent and crush!
-You finish your ras as air but vegetables in your team seem to have picked up a down syndrome and dyslexia within the last 5 minutes, now you enjoy your loss vs people with normal eyesight.
-You are 70% through your ras as beach from air overflow and then some retarded rock St*****rn decides it's a good idea to start his own ras, arguing that "rock always rases first after air", fucking up all your grand plans and ideas.

Again, I do agree that it's better to make ras more expensive and slow to upgrade vs producing less e, but I still would rather see Ras nerfed badly than it continuing to bring cancer.
Anyway, fu to all balance complainers and balance supporters, I wrote a serious post because of you( /me goes to wash his mouth with soap

[Mel_Gibson]

A wild Sensei has appeared.

If someone can link that HZH post it would be really nice, because i don't really understand how increasing cost will make that huge a difference. If you increase cost too much to the point it becomes better to build t3 pgens then you can just go t3 pgens instead and ras basically becomes a mobile mass fab. Don't increase it enough that t3 pgens aren''t preferred then surely the problem of leeching teammates won't really be solved?

If you nerf e output a bit, say 2000-2500 or something (1200 output is a bit silly, i'd just make all factions ras more or less the the same) then it seems to me RAS is still viable as an "air player" for a variety or reasons but somewhat reduces the problem of overflow to teammates, who will now have to eco on their own and go through the t2 pgen - t3 route, especially on something like setons rock spot where if you're playing the eco game you'll probably need a t3 pgen relatively quickly even with a non nerfed ras. Perhaps double ras becomes stronger in this case, but that could be tweaked, idk.

[Zock]

Wild sensais are good sensais.

By nerfing the output of RAS we'd just make it worse in almost every aspect than other eco options and go from a RAS meta to a t3 pgen meta.

If someone can link that HZH post it would be really nice, because i don't really understand how increasing cost will make that huge a difference. If you increase cost too much to the point it becomes better to build t3 pgens then you can just go t3 pgens instead and ras basically becomes a mobile mass fab. Don't increase it enough that t3 pgens aren''t preferred then surely the problem of leeching teammates won't really be solved?

Worth quoting myself here:

As mentioned, i wanted to have higher cost in the beginning too, but i changed it to lower income after feedback during the alpha.

There is one rather large downside you missed though and why i changed it originally, with higher cost it will become harder to get it in 1v1 (especially taken into account that its not so strong anymore, and will give less of an advantage) and less of an flexible upgrade.

Your other points are still good however, and since many people agree i'll change it in the next version.

What is important to note is that RAS needs to be in some ways different to normal eco. If we adjust the cost to be more equivalent to normal eco, and then a bit worse so its not so strong anymore, we can easily turn RAS from being a braindead best option into an useless upgrade. For that, i think RAS should stay either more mass efficient like now, or more energy efficient instead (which would make it even stronger for air rushes, but on the expense of eco) to make it different to normal eco, and to make it better in some situations, but worse in others.

So instead of increasing mass cost, i put a higher power outcome decrease in return for now, but leave mass the same. (Yes i know you told me from the beginning Sir balance terrorist, no need to mention it ) Another option is to increase energy cost, but i believe lower energy income can lead to some decision if you should reclaim your t2 pgs for mass, or keep them for more early air, and its also more suitable for 1v1. But i believe it is still going well with your main points of making it harder to spam early air (or more costly if you keep your pgs), easier to adapt and it keeps the mass income for the air player. Its not making the RAS player easier to snipe while he is doing ras though..so depending on how this turns out, i wont mind to reduce energy income less and increase energy cost instead.

If anyone think it'd be better to swap it around completly and make it more efficient in power, but expensive in mass, thats possible too, but it would be a much bigger change and harder to adapt to.

Would be good to have this change tested a bit more before discussing further.

Unfortunately, neither HZH nor anyone else really responded to this.

[biass]

@Gorton: Exactly, I just propose to make RAS more expensive (you could reduce the power income at the same time by a bit)

I forgot to mention that making RAS and ARAS more expensive could create an interesting dynamic between players choosing to go for ARAS straight up in teamgames as air player.

@biass: In other thread ( viewtopic.php?f=67&t=10702 ), many top 1v1 players felt that RAS is too cheap for what it provides in secure (since it's mounted on your ACU) income. On larger maps, RAS is the most efficient, easy, and secure option to increase your power income after T2 pgens. On 4 T2 pgens, you can finish RAS after roughly 1,25 to 1,50 minutes, after which (reclamining pgens or) rushing T3 air are very compelling options to get a further advantage.

Looking at the stats of RAS and Mozart's post in above mentioned thread once more, I found that most players disagree with the mass cost of RAS (in terms of power, RAS is actually more expensive than the combined cost of a similar income based on pgens and mexes). Hence, I want to go forward with my original proposal to make RAS more mass expensive (while reducing power income to a lesser degree, no mass income change):

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CALCULATION
RAS income: 3,5k/3,3k/3,0k/2,7k (3,125k) power; 12/14/16/18 (avg 15) mass

Equivalent with T3 pgens and capped T2 mexes: 1,25 T3 pgen and 1,78 capped T2 mex

RAS equivalent economy: Cost of 1,25 T3 pgen and 1,78 capped T2 mex:

1,25 T3 pgen: 4.050 mass, 72.000 power
+1,78 Capped T2 mex: 3.026 mass, 20.292 power
= RAS equivalent economy cost: 7.076 mass, 92.292 power


Here is how I would include the cost for T2 or T3 tech:
- Getting RAS on T1 pgens is possible, but very unlikely. T2 pgens and, hence, T2 tech is basically a requirement for getting RAS. Therefore, removing the cost for T2 tech from this comparison is a justifiable simplification.
- By the time you get the chance to go for RAS in 1v1, you will almost always have a T3 land HQ already.
- The only issue are teamgames, where T3 tech is often not available at the time when players (especially air players start their RAS upgrade before getting any T3 tech)
- The T3 ACU is the cheapest way to get to T3 tech. At the same time, a T3 ACU can be used for many other things
- Hence, my conclusion is to add half the cost for a T3 ACU to the comparison: Average from T3 ACU not required (1v1) and T3 ACU required (teamgames)

RAS equivalent economy cost: 7.076 mass, 92.292 power
+ 1/2 T3 ACU: 1.200 mass, 25.000 power
= RAS equivalent no-RAS cost: 8.276 mass, 127.292 power

compared to RAS cost in current version of FAF: 5.000 mass, 150.000 power

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As can be seen in the calculation above, to build up a similar economy to RAS, you would need approx. 65% more mass than the cost for the RAS upgrade. In terms of power, RAS is not as efficient as some players actually think it is. However, considering the fact that the RAS upgrade is mounted on the back of your ACU and, thus, less susceptible to be destroyed, the increased cost is tentatively justified.

It will probably take an extended period of time to test possible new configurations with RAS. However, I suggest that starting with a 40% increase in mass cost for RAS combined with a 20% reduced power output may be an interesting approach. Considering that most players opposing RAS all together dislike it for the early T3 air rushes that you can pull off in teamgames, this change will provide a solution to that problem in contrast to the current approach.

Zock, just to clear up things, I didn't mean to say that your and the balance team's approach is going the wrong direction. In fact, I think it is already better balanced with those changes compared to what we have right now. I would just further improve the proposed change to RAS in the current beta to also make T3 air rushes requiring more time. Obviously, as a player who enjoys high-level teamgames (at this time arguably only happening on Setons) and who is often stuck on the air position on many normal teamgame maps, I am convinced that this will be a more easy change for player to adapt to. At the same time, it leaves air players with more mass later on, which is crucial, since air players usually have no space to expand to on most teamgame maps.

While I am a little sad that it will take longer with these changes to reach the later stages of teamgames I believe that these are the best option to balance both, RAS in teamgames as well as 1v1.

This one?