Buff antinavy.

[Zsombi]

In a 1 on 1 encounter no dedicated moble antinavy asset should take so much effort, not to mention loose, against another unit of the same tier as it takes now. Prime example is at T1 a UEF underwater submarine vs. a UEF frigate in its vision range. Such an encounter should end in just a few seconds (but no ore than 5) with the sinking of the frigate.

At T2 other than maybe the Aeon destroyer -because its torp.defense- no ship should be able to survive 1 on 1 vs. a dedicated antinavy vessel (submarine, torp.boat) of same tech level, not to mention come out victorious.
Right now even though, for example, the Cybrans have a dedicated T2 antinavy submarine, it's still better to make a destroyer to counter stuff in the water.

The Seraphim T3 sub. should be the best just under the the Aeon Tempest and T3 torp.bomber, and maybe the UEF Atlantis. Non-damage wise only the UEF torp.boat should be the better one because of its insane torp. defense. But just by antinavy -torpedo /depth charge projectile- damage wise everything else should be weaker.

It was not long ago, there was a match where one player lost a fleet of T2 subs to frigates and destroyers. That should have never happened. Antinavy assets should always be superior to everything else in the water during 1 on 1 same tier naval combat.

All in all, dedicated antinavy should be the bane of all in the water across all tier levels.
I suggest to either buff torpedo and depth charge damage or -which might be better- make everything that can be targeted by antinavy weapons/projectiles to be much more susceptible to torpedo, depth charge and other such antinavy damage.

As of now, producing submarines quickly becomes useless as soon as the opponent has more than a couple of frigates or just a few destroyers.

[Reaper Zwei]

Well your not alone in thinking that subs need a buff of some kind however t1 subs killing frigates in 5 seconds or less is way way to op. that's like giving t1 subs percy level dps or higher. I'm not sure buffing them that way is the right way to go that just turns t1 navy into sub spam instead of the frigate spam it is now. IMO you want to have it be possible to build either or, or some kind of mix.

[keyser]

thing is we don't want the navy game to turn into a sub fest.
subs still have niche role :
- with good micro can beat destro
- good for raiding (lower price, faster...)
- good for surprise attack.
- ability to hard counter frigate, which is the main component of navy.

[IceDreamer]

Yup, they need a buff of some kind, but not to that kind of extreme. Personally I'd like to keep them as micro-heavy, so I'd boost range and speed OR I'd give them underwater stealth and check all Navy unit water vision. I'd boost DPS slightly alongside either. Both options would turn subs into kiting units with a more reasonable kill time.

On this note, Torp Def needs a pretty heavy boost now surface fire can aim at it properly. Frigates and Destroyers just wreck them so hard. More HP, DPS, and Range to deal with Destroyers etc, then have Subs with superior range or Stealth with range > torp def optics be the counter.

[JaggedAppliance]

I don't think they really need a buff, I see all subs getting used pretty often. Yeah, t1 subs generally aren't good but the rest are quite viable. They can be op quite easily with some buffs.

[TheKoopa]

Aren't deestroyers IRL specifically made to be anti-sub?

[IceDreamer]

Aren't deestroyers IRL specifically made to be anti-sub?

Yes, but destroyers in supcom are closer to IRL battleships, which have been almost totally phased out. Modern destroyers have torpedoes, missiles, and then defenses.

[yeager]

give t1 sub a small damage boost. thats all i see here

[Zsombi]

Hmm.. wel, I kinda see subs as I see inties, fighters and asf in Air. I think subs should have a similar role in the water, it doesn't have to turn into a spam fest like in air but they should still me much more useful than now.

Also, you just cannot micro against antinavy because all such projectiles track their target.

[keyser]

Hmm.. wel, I kinda see subs as I see inties, fighters and asf in Air. I think subs should have a similar role in the water, it doesn't have to turn into a spam fest like in air but they should still me much more useful than now.

Also, you just cannot micro against antinavy because all such projectiles track their target.

You can get under the destro, and avoid his torpedo defense. It's even possible to get at a range,where sub torpedo works, and destro torpedo defense doesn't.