T2 Artilery instalation rework

[Ithilis_Quo]

Hi guys, i had easy, simply and hope good, maybe great idea on innovative and defensive game-play.

Idea is about make T2 arty possibility to be upgraded, similar like cybran shield and on master plane with fraction diversity.
Why? Becase now is T2 arty build only by noobs, or only as offensive building, never as defensive. It totally dont get that mass cost back.

TOTAL

Spoiler: show

UNMASTER

EASY
PLANE:
T2 arty can cost half mass/energy and 2/3 build time
T2 arty had half dmg and lower range 128->85
T2 arty had possibility to be upgrade for number like its today. (half mass/energy cost and 1/3 build time)

tadaaaa. that is all. Result will be: T2 arty would be build more often, not upgrade one would be more cost effective, and not so big risk. And it help bring this building back to game as defensive structure not only as offensive like is building now. If you think it will not work/help/ussles/shitty etc dont read next part, it you like it and think that is will help here is more inovative parth like upgrade of previous one.

MASTER
PLANE:
same as total easy unmaster plane but + fraction diversity on second upgrade, and posibility of 3th upgrade on same fraction. (uef, nomads)
- diversity-
Aeon
upgraded get bigger range 128->140
Cybran
upgraded get stun on shot (only units)
Serafin
upgrade get small bubble shield around (size 5, 1150hp -35e) but -500hp
UEF
upgraded same as today but posibility to 3th upgrade (for half cost again) -> range 128-135, splash 3->4, dmg 2000->2500, hp 3600->4500
Nomads
upgrade same as today but possibility to 3th upgrade (for half cost again) -> firing randomness 1 -> 0,75, reload time 11,1s ->7,6sec, hp 3100->3500

[Iszh]

Small Info additional here, because i think maybe it is possible to increase the effectiveness of t2 arti with adjacency solution:

A t2 arti costs arround 1900 mass average values. I tested the change in reload time of arti with pgens arround.

t1 pgens -> 84% reload time -> 119,05% DPS
t2 pgens -> 76% reload time -> 131,58% DPS
t3 pgens -> 60% reload time -> 166,67% DPS

So after small calculation i realized that it is exactly the same dps for mass cost to get a t2 arti with t1 pgens arround to simply to built more arti. It makes no difference at all since the increased dps in % is the same like the mass cost increase for 1 arti. If you get more artis the relation is better. Result is a t1 pgen next to t2 arti will only increase the dps to cost effect if at least connected to 2 arti. T2 pgens are simply pointless for arti because you need to connect it to 8 arti or more that it is worth.

T3 pgen is a very good deal for t3 arti. Same size and extremely high mass cost makes it very useful. For example a t3 Duke has 550 dps for 70k mass. For only 12k mass more you get energy income 10k and increase the dps to 920. Thats nearly double.

So Maybe the Adjacency bonus for t2 arti can be increased that is useful like for t3 or at least more useful than at the moment.

[Tokyto]

The thing is T2 artillery is just useless compared to t3 mobile artillery, everyone will rather build t3 mobile one then the ultra expensive static too much firing randomness t2 shit

[ColonelSheppard]

I think T2 Arty has currently a viable and good (though situational) place in the game and i would prefer to leave it like that.

[Mycen]

Result is a t1 pgen next to t2 arti will only increase the dps to cost effect if at least connected to 2 arti.

So you've just stated the solution yourself: Connect T1 pgens to more than one artillery. You already said that usually it's just as cost effective to build more arty as it is to do pgen adjacency, so build the two arty anyway, then put two pgens next to both.

Remember, T1 pgen adjacency is not necessarily equivalent in cost effectiveness as multiple T2 arty, because you can get incremental benefits from adjacency. Artillery surrounded by pgens will give you immediately increased DPS for 300 mass, but in order to get the extra DPS from a second artillery installation you have to actually go and spend the other 1500 mass.

T2 pgens are simply pointless for arti because you need to connect it to 8 arti or more that it is worth.

You don't build the T2 pgens for the arty, you build the arty for the pgens. You're going to have T2 pgens anyway. And you're going to want to defend them. So if they're in a position where they might be attacked by ground, build a T2 arty next to them, and get that bonus.

The thing is T2 artillery is just useless compared to t3 mobile artillery, everyone will rather build t3 mobile one then the ultra expensive static too much firing randomness t2 shit

What? Have you ever beaten a T2 arty with T3 mobile? I don't see how, considering that the T2 arty totally outranges it. In a chokepoint late game situation T2 arty are really good. They can match or outrange any mobile attacker except a Scathis, UEF battleship, and Aeon Missile boat, and it is accurate enough to take on slow-moving combat experimentals quite nicely. (Then finish off with Ravagers/Percivals/Sniper bots/Bricks when they get up to your lines.)


They're expensive, but that's because they're very effective defenses, that get more effective the more of them you have. Making them cheaper would make turtling easier, but how would it make the game better? It's not like every unit has to be used all the time.

[Exotic_Retard]

http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=UAB2303,URB2303,UEB2303,XSB2303
they dont really have much dps... as much as 2 t2 mmls, mostly used for keeping (cybran) navy at bay/countering fatty

In a chokepoint late game situation T2 arty are really good.

you sure? as aeon, its super easy: absolvers+snipers/arty+mobile shields
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=DAL0310,UAL0304,XAL0305,UAL0307
as sera: arty/snipers+shields
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=XSL0304,XSL0307,XSL0305
as cybran its hardest: stealth +arty + static shields
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=URL0306,URL0304,URB4202
as uef: arty/t3mml+ shields
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.php?bp=UEL0307,UEL0304,XEL0306

one t2 arty costs 1.7-2k mass while one mobile t3 arty costs 800 mass, is mobile, and has more dps/mass (also dont use power for every shot). the thing is here not to try to outrange, but to simply kill it.


also you could wait until he has ~ 3 of them and then enjoy your 6k mass advantage and kill him with the tanks you spent that mass with:
if you have 5 more brciks that him im not sure that you will win unless he started building it 40 min into the game when there is 999 mass income for everyone...

[IceDreamer]

I think T2 Arty has currently a viable and good (though situational) place in the game and i would prefer to leave it like that.

I agree with Sheppard here. Situational =/= Underpowered. It's clearly not 'Only built by noobs' as I have seen it built by every one of the higher rated players in replays, when the time calls for it. Used appropriately, it's an incredibly powerful weapon, and it fits the niche perfectly.

Examining their DPS is utterly pointless by the way. It is the Range which defines the unit.

[Iszh]

I in fact also agree that it is fine like it is but i was wondering since adjacency for those artis was implemented and for t3 it is so great maybe it would not harm to give it a mini buff with adjacency that you can have a bit better relation mass / dps.

Example UEF arti:
1890 mass cost 100 DPS --> 18,9 mass /dps
+4 x t1 pgens:
2190 mass cost 120 DPS --> 18,25 mass / dps

maybe if the reload time could be decreased a bit more for t2 arti with t1 pegen so adjacency is useful for those arti and get 10% bonus or 20% instead of 2,5 % like atm
(2,5% is the difference from 18,9 mass / dps to 18,25 mass / dps)
somehow that would add something nice to the game.

[Ithilis_Quo]

Situational =/= Underpowered. It's clearly not 'Only built by noobs' as I have seen it built by every one of the higher rated players in replays, when the time calls for it

say me some at least 2 stituation when you can use it for deffense and it will be better like use T3 mobile.
http://faforever.com/faf/unitsDB/unit.p ... 04,UEB2303

T3 cost 30% mass, had 30-100% bigger splash dmg !! had 50% less firing randomnes !!! its mobile, dont must be on one place and had less range (but its mobile) and its mobile. And its muth better like 3x more expensive static.

Where is better make T2 statik instead of mobile?

And why is mobile so much better accurate as is static?


___
My suggestion only bring something like half T2 arty, something beten what would not be so incredible expensive and not so rarely usse, but of course with half effectivnes.

[errorblankfield]

Situation 1: T2 phase



Situation 2: Fatboys

But I agree actually, no one builds them for a reason, they cost way to much. If the target moves, arty is pretty useless. All it does is force someone to either move back, or attack your encampment. If you have so much eco tied into static PD that having them attack you is ideal (rather than waiting to build up your army), then yea, arty all the way. But most people defend with a mobile army for the duality of offense and defense. Forcing someone to attack your army isn't the best idea if there is parity... There isn't a good defenders advantage in this game. So you need a bigger defending army before forcing an attack is good -but then you should just attack.

So unless your within arty range of their fire base and can rain arty on them so they have to leave the comfort of their PD to attack, arty is the key. But that's not the most common situation -nor one you'd want to force. Build big army, be stalled by PD, ferry out an engy, build a fire base, build arty, now you can crush the firebase -after the arty kills things slowly...

Or just bomb the shift out of that base.
And/or mobile of course.

So either fatties or no other options -the perfect situations for T2 arty!

Even more range would be interesting... or cost reduction. Could even keep the build time high for reasons.